New submersible pump will not pump water.

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John Moore

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I have installed a new Grundfos 3HP constant pressure pump in a 500' well. It will not pump any water to the surface. The pump is set at 400' with 275' of water over the inlet. The pump is model # MS4000 16GPM installed with 1 1/4" galv. drop pipe and two check valves. One check valve is installed 25 feet above the pump an one is 200' above the pump. The computerized controller will start the pump and then fault to error code 79. This code is described as "dry run" and occurs when their is little load on the pump. This seems to be what is happening. Full load amperage is 11.8 amps. The pump amperage while it runs for about 10 seconds is 6-7 amps, then the fault ocuurs and stops the pump. Could a submersible pump with 275' of water over it be air locked? Durring installation air kept escaping from the swivel cap that I used to lower the assembly. This seems to indicate water has worked its way up the drop pipe. Has anyone had any similar problems or any experience with this pump system? If it is air locked what is the remedy? Thanks, John
 

Raucina

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- Faulty electronics?

- air did not escape and one check valve is reversed?

-did you test the pump in water before setting and check amp draw?
 

Gary Slusser

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Hopefully the derrick truck is still hooked to the drop pipe....

A 3hp is a big pump for only being 400' deep. Why leave the 100' of water under the pump's inlet instead of setting it at 480 or so? You up at a high elevation like 5000+'?

I say lose the check valves unless there is none in the outlet of the pump. If there is not, then install one on the outlet.

I wouldn't have used galvanized unless I really needed the 3 hp pump and then I would have used sch 80 PVC. BTW, I've done pump work for customers for the last 20 years.

I can't help with the error, I've never worked on a variable speed/frequency pump; nor will I. I would have suggested a CSV being a much better choice.
 

Pumpman

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That MS4000 is actually the motor number, so I don't know exactly which pump is being used. But, in looking at a Grundfos 16 gpm pump curve (3 hp), it appears that the pump will supply 16 gpm at nearly 500 ft/hd.
Is it possible that the pump is way over sized for this application, and thus, shutting down on low amp load?
Gary, BobNH, Speed, anybody???
Ron
 

Speedbump

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I was thinking along the lines of the upside down checkvalve Ron. I don't have a Grundfos pump book so I can't look that one up. A Betta Flo 3hp 18 gpm pump is doing 20 gpm at 400 feet of head. That's a lot of water for several homes.

I have a few questions for John Moore:

1. Why two or three check valves?

2. Why a three horse pump? Is this for irrigation or some other high water usage job?

3. Are you using this pump for several different jobs?

bob...
 

Gary Slusser

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I don't know Ron, but it sounds as if it could be possible. The static water level is at 125', so the pump initially is only moving water from 125'; 400-275=125. So what's its output at that depth?

He said it won't pump water to the surface, I wonder if the drop pipe is full or one of the check valves is in backwards (as Raucina suggested). That's the first thing I thought of when I read the post. Maybe he has a valve closed or broken closed.

He mentioned maybe it's air locked. I don't believe that's possible.
 
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Rancher

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Gary Slusser said:
He mentioned maybe it's air locked. I don't believe that's possible.
I agree, I've voting for a bad controller.

Rancher
 

Pumpman

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Gary,
On the curve I have, the 3 hp, 16 gpm pump drops off the right side of the curve at 350 ft.hd., which is alot more than the head it's pumping at (or trying to).
I know on the VFD's I've seen, the amps don't have to drop much for the unit to shut down on low amps. Sometimes these parameters are adjustable.
I agree, a reversed checkvalve is the first thought, but I would assume that was double or triple checked as it was installed.
Ron
 
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If it's been installed and it didn't work, where's the well company?

Rancher
 

John Moore

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Thanks for the input from all who replied. I will try to answer some of the questions raised.

1 - Faulty electronics could be the problem. The supplier is sending a new Grundfos CU321 controller for us to try.
2 – Once we hit water every time a section of pipe was lowered lots of air escaped from the lifting cap. Should be lots of water in the pipe and pump.
3 - Three people inspected the check valves at installation to confirm proper installation direction.
4 – The pump was not tested in water before setting.
5 – The 3HP Pump was selected to meet the demands of the owner for irrigation, fluctuations in seasonal static and drawn down levels, and fire suppression capabilities.
6- The owner did not want to set the pump any deeper than 400’. The elevation of the property is about 800’
7 – It is possible the pump is oversized and shutting down on low amp load. That is what the code 79 suggests. But I have not been able to pump water to the surface and build pressure for the components to operate as they normally would before the controller throws the 79 code.
8 – The check extra check valves were recommended by pump supplier and supporting literature.
Thanks,
John
 

Speedbump

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Even though there is literature that more than one check valve is needed in an installation like this, I think you will find most of us here recommend only one check valve and that would be the one in or on the pump itself.

Does the pump stop running when you get this code?

bob...
 

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I don't know....I may be all wet about whether the pump is oversized for the application, but I know that matching motor to pump is much more critical on a VSD (VFD) that just using a standard motor/pump combo.
I've installed these systems using a jet pump, and I know that if the pump doesn't prime right away, it'll shut it self down on low amps. It assumes no flow. On some systems, the parameters can be changed, and then once the pump is primed and working, the parameters can be reset to provide the necessary protection.
Maybe the real problem is that there is no CSV installed.....just kidding!!!
Although a regular pump/motor combo with a CSV might have been a way to go.....
Ron
 

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I can't BELIEVE I missed this one. I don't agree with the two check valves but, if air was coming out the drop pipe as it was lowered, the check valves must be facing the right direction.

One of the problems with a VFD is that you lose head by the square of the speed. So this 3450 RPM pump cannot build enough pressure to lift water from that depth until it gets up to 2700 RPM or so. If the VFD is programmed to take 20 seconds to start, then the first 15 seconds it is doing nothing, the amps are still low because it is not yet pumping water, and it shuts off thinking the well is dry. If it will run long enough to get above 2700 RPM, then it begins to pump water and the amps will increase.

Another problem with VFD is that even the people who make and sell them have no idea how they work. So try another controller is always their answer because it is a computer and there could be any number of things wrong with hardware or programming. The VFD is a computer that has a fan in it to keep the electronics cool. This makes it susceptible to lint, dust, insects, and temperature changes. It is also susceptible to power fluctuations, and can just crash for no reason as can any other computer. When this happens you are not just frustrated but, also OUT OF WATER.

Running the pump and motor with a VFD also has many side effects. The Kingbury type thrust bearing does not get any lubrication below 1800 RPM so, slowly ramping up or down below 1800 RPM shaves off part of the bearing each time. There are several critical speeds which causes destructive vibration in the pump and motor. A 230 volt VFD will send voltage spikes to the motor and wire of over 1,000 volts. This reflective wave has an accumulative effect making the voltage at the motor higher, the longer the drop wire is. Harmonics and stray voltage are fed back into the power supply and can cause things like lines on the TV and static on the radio and even cancels out some AM stations. Stray voltage can cause dairy cattle to get sick and decreases milk production so it is bound to also affect humans. Then because you lose head by the square of the speed, it is not able to be slowed down enough to save any energy. You will actually be using more power per gallon of water anytime the VFD is not running at full speed.

One of the biggest problems is that these units do not use a pressure bandwidth for on and off. If you set it a 50 PSI, it is always at 50 PSI. This means that a pressure tank of any size will not express any water. So every time you wash your tooth brush or the ice maker fills the pump must start up. This also causes a dripping faucet or forget to giggle the handle toilet to continually ramp the pump up and down until it faults out for good. There are some new VFD's out there but, VFD technology is fairly old, 30 years or so old. The Cycle Stop Valve is actually newer technology that was designed to mimic the function of a VFD without all the negative side effects, high cost, and short life span of VFD controlled equipment. I know that this 3 HP VFD system was not cheap so, I hope you can get it running. When you get used to the constant pressure but, tired of the lack of dependability, you can easily switch to a CSV for long lasting, inexpensive, dependable, constant pressure.
 

John Moore

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Hi all,
The Goulds pump model is 16S30-24
On Wednesday 2/28/07 I tried the second controller. Same result as before. The controller would operate for 15 seconds or so then display the 79 trouble code. (79 = Pump dry.) The pump continues to run after the code is displayed. Amperage reading both before and after displayed code is 5.4 Amps. Full load is 11.8 Amps

Today 3/1/07 I talked with an engineer at Goulds. He mentioned that the escaping air I heard during installation would not necessarily guarantee properly functioning Check valves. Air could leak by a reversed check valve until the water reached it. The greater mass of the water could then push the valve closed.
He also told me the controller was running the pump at full speed shortly after a soft start. If this is true then the conclusion I now draw (and the Goulds engineer) is that water is being blocked and their fore the pumps low amperage draw is a result of it being unloaded by blocked water flow. The most likely culprit is one or more of the check valves either reversed or damaged by an over tightened drop pipe.

Next step is to confirm full speed operation with a meter reading the frequency of the controller output.
If the motor is running at full speed (60 Hz) then next we pull the pump and confirm above ground operation.
Then reinstall without the extra check valves.

Thanks for all your comments. It really helped me think this one through.
It will be several days before I can get back to pull the pump. I will try to leave a reply when I have the pump working and let you all know what we found.
Thanks, John
 

Raucina

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Tell us what brand and type of check valve you used. Indeed if you blow gently into many check valves, AIR will pass. Water at pressure is another thing.

When you get it out, put the heaviest and best quality checkvalve at the pump [no check valve built in?] and eliminate the other two... thats two less things to break or be reversed. I like MORE check valves unlike some here, but not when supporting several hundred feet of drop pipe in a dark hole. Another at the surface would be safer.

SURPLUS CENTER - stainless steel 1.25" ball check, spring load, MIL spec, Extra heavy wall - 14$ or so. Leave a few for me.
 

Valveman

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Ok I am confused. 16S30-24 is a Grundfos number. Did you just write Goulds and mean Grundfos? I agree the pump is either restricted or air locked. Don't you think it is funny that a 11.8 amp pump/motor, running a t full speed 60 hertz, is only pulling 5.8 amps when restricted? Why do you need the variable speed contraption if the pump already reduces the power consumed by simply restricting with a valve? This is the whole idea of the Cycle Stop Valve. We discovered 15 years ago that energy consumed by a pump reduces exactly the same by restricting the pump with a valve as it does by slowing the RPM with a complicated VFD. Now you have spent days on the phone with a technician trying to determine if the problem is with the computer or if you just got a check valve backwards. Understanding the complicated technical issues of a VFD is just the first problem you will experience. When and if you do get it up and running, I could give you a long list of other problems or side effects of the VFD that you will experience. I hope you will keep us informed as time goes on, so that others will not have to go through the same problems you are having. The simpler you keep the pump control, the more dependable your supply of water. The CSV does simply with one moving part and NO electronics what the VFD does with all the computerized electronics that render it unreliable. The CSV is newer technology than VFD. Doing more with less is what makes the CSV higher tech than the VFD which does less with more.
 

John Moore

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Update

Update

We pulled the pump out and inspected the check valves.

The upper brass check valve that was installed at the halfway point, about 200’ from the surface, was installed in the proper direction. It has a nylon dome shaped gate and did not seem to be having any problems.

The second brass check valve was installed at about 380’ and 25’ above the pump. It was installed in the proper direction. It had a brass disk shaped gate. The stock 21’ drop pipe threaded into the top discharge side of this valve had threads a little over 1 1/8†long. These threads should have been cut to about 5/8†long. The extra length allowed the drop pipe to extend too far into the check valve and too close to the brass gate. The gate would seat against its seat when the pump was off and seat against the end of the drop pipe when the pump was on. We had a double check valve of the worst kind.

We eliminated both brass check valves at the advice of some of you and the Grundfos engineer we talked to. The Grundfos engineer said the pumps built in stainless check valve was designed to hold water with up to 700’ of head.
The pump is now pumping.

Thanks to all who helped with their advise.
John
 

Speedbump

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I thought we were all done with the attacks.

I thought all the pump guys here gave very good advice and it did turn out to be a checkvalve. I have seen this happen before where the pipe was cranked too far into a rather short check valve and it would act as if it were in upside down.

I'm a little amazed that there were two totally different check valves used on the same job.

bob...
 
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