New Kitchen sink installation questions

Discussion in 'Plumbing Forum, Professional & DIY Advice, Tips & ' started by ddagsyn, Jan 2, 2007.

  1. ddagsyn

    ddagsyn New Member

    Messages:
    50
    hi
    I am planning on getting new kitchen countertops installed and my kitchen sink replaced.

    The hot and cold faucets in the sink do have Stop values located under the sink. There is a copper pipe that connects the faucets to each of the hot and cold Stop values. It looks like I have flare fittings at the end of the copper pipe which attach to the stop valves. I would need to disconnect and remove the flare fitting and hence the copper pipe during the remodel.

    If so would I be able to re attach and reuse the same flare fitting?

    As an alternative I would like to use the following product from Watts called Flood Safe. How would i know what to order (FIP)/Fine thread female? And how would i know size to buy for the stop valve end. Your thoughts on using such a product instead of the existing copper pipe connections?
    http://www.watts.com/pdf/ES-FS-CFC-S.pdf

    Thanks for reading
  2. If a customer hands me those supply lines to install I will do it.

    I will not keep those on my plumbing rig though. I keep hearing of problems of having to constantly take them off to reset, fast-acting solenoid valves triggering them to shut off while in use, people who don't address high pressure issues have to sloooooooooooooowly turn their faucets on otherwise they will trigger them to stop.

    HD is having trouble selling them; lots of them are coming back.

    Wait for other opinions; I myself can't deal with callbacks that involve product error because of surrounding circumstance.
  3. ddagsyn

    ddagsyn New Member

    Messages:
    50
    Thanks for your reply. I don't think i will go with the Floodsafe model for the very reason you specified. I did do some reading on google and found users with the issues you described.

    Anyway what about the existing flare fittings question can they be removed from the stop valve and later retightened onto the stop valve or is it a one time use only.

    Also, I was at the home improvement store and noticed that that the stop valves had compression nut and ferrule being sold threaded onto the outlet valve.
    My question is instead of using a copper pipe with the compression nut and ferrule can i just use a factory made braided stainless pipe threaded to the stop valve or does it have to be a compression or flare fitting only. Thus are compression and the stainless pipe to the faucet interchangable provided the Outlet is threaded.

    Thanks
  4. I'm on my way out the door but I think from reading your reply.......

    it is necessary to have isolation valves under fixtures like sinks and toilets whenever possible. Also, compression angle or straight stops are commonly used unless you want sweat connections. You can do that with a 3/8" compression connection for a stainless steel flex line supply which is becoming the industry standard in reworks, not new construction in most cases.

    I had a customer that insisted on 3/8" soft copper from the faucet to the shutoff valve, all sweated with no chance of leaking. Hadn't done that in years but he wanted it that way.

    Most anything flare can be reused in your situation.

    I use stainless steel flex lines almost solely now for my installations.
  5. ddagsyn

    ddagsyn New Member

    Messages:
    50
    What is a "Female Iron pipe end " and "Fine thread female end" and how is that different from a "Compression end" for a stainless steel flex line.

    What type of end should I be using to connect to my stop valve to the faucet which has a 3/8" O.D straight staggered copper supply tubes with 1/2"-14 NSPM adapters. What connector type should be on the stainless steel flex line which connects to the stop valve.

    Thanks
  6. Verdeboy

    Verdeboy In the Trades

    Messages:
    2,051
    This is taken from a plumbing terms glossary:

    FIP -(Female Iron Pipe) Standard threads that are on the inside of a pipe fitting.

    Compression fitting -A pipe connection that seals without soldering. As a nut is tightened on one fitting, it compresses a washer or gasket around the second pipe, forming a watertight closure.

    The most common flexible supply lines have a 3/8" female end that connects to the stop and a 1/2" female end that connects to the faucet. These are compression-type fittings.
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2007
  7. ddagsyn

    ddagsyn New Member

    Messages:
    50
    Now switching over to the sink installation.
    We currently have an overmount sink and would like to do an undermount sink with the granite countertops. Does going from an overmount to an undermount sink lower the garbage disposal and hence the drain pipe.
    The current Garbage disposal is about 12 inches in length.

    Right now the distance from the center of my garbage disposal drain to the P Trap is about 6".
    What is the min distance i must maintain between the garbage disposal drain and the P Trap to be within code? Are they any other issues i should be concerned about with this installation.

    Thanks
  8. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    21,802
    Location:
    New England
    The angle pipe coming out of the garbage disposer needs to go into the p-trap. As long as you don't try to run it uphill, if you can get it in, it isn't too low. Sinks come in all sorts of depth, so whether it is overmount (drop-in) or undermount makes little difference - it is the depth of the sink that matters.
  9. ddagsyn

    ddagsyn New Member

    Messages:
    50
    The garbage disposal has a 90 degree pipe that connects to a Y 1 1/2 " PVC pipe. So the top of Y has the garbage disposal pipe and the dishwasher drain pipe and the botton end screws into the PVC P trap.
    Now that the garbage disposal would lower how would I resize the Y to fit the new isntallation. Does it have threads on the end before entering the P Trap?

    Thank you guys for answering my questions
  10. markts30

    markts30 Commercial Plumber

    Messages:
    630
    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
    It would be easier to help if you could supply a picture...
  11. Randyj

    Randyj Master Plumber

    Messages:
    1,047
    Location:
    Alabama
    I've only had to work with one disposer. The discharge came out at 90 degrees and ran directly to the tee which connected to the tail piece below the basket of the other bowl. It was a simple slip nut connection on that side. The connection to the disposer was like a ring with a bolt which compressed a rubber ring/gromet to seal/secure the 1 1/2" drain pipe...std on kitchen sinks. When connecting this sink on the same kind of remodel you describe I had to lower the tee about 1 1/2" to which the p-trap goes to. If you are fortunate the drain may be low enough already. We plumbed several high end apartments and it seems that those connections were about 14" above the floor.
  12. ddagsyn

    ddagsyn New Member

    Messages:
    50
    Good idea here are some pictures of what I want to do.

    We are planning on remodeling the kitchen and are in the design phase. Plan on installing granite countertops with an undermount 8 inch sink. Right now we have an overmount 8 inch sink.
    Question -I am going to assume (correct me please) that when we install the 8 inch undermount my garbage disposal will also lower approx 1 1/2 inch since the sink sits below the granite.
    Now i don't know all the plumbing proper names for the equipment but going to describe it best way i can.

    The black 90 degree pipe is metal and connects to the WYE pipe that leads to the P Trap. The distance from the horizontal pipe that come from the wall to the center of the black pipe is about 7 ".

    Question: So if i were to drop about 2 inches would i be in any violation of any code here in Texas.


    My dishwasher is not connected to the garbage disposal but to the WYE Pipe. It is the black clamped pipe in the picture that goes up to an Air gap.

    Question :Now if i had to lower the Garbage disposal can I cut the WYE pipe to fit into the P Trap Or can i buy a shorter one from Lowes or Home Depot. If so what should i be looking for?

    Question : If I were to cut the Wye an inch before I set it into the P Trap would it still attach is it threaded in anyway or is it just smooth pvc?

    Queston: Also the PVC pipes don't seem to be glued but screwed together ?correct?

    Question: What holds the PVC pipes in question together and do they have any gaskets in them? If they have any gaskets do they need to be replaced?

    Question: do I need to put any sealant/lubrication etc around the Wye that holds the rubber hose before clamping on the dishwasher?


    Please look at the second pictures with the stop valves.
    -I plan on replacing the flare fittings with braided stainless steel guessing that a 3/8 inch compression will fit and a 1/2 female compression on the other end for the faucet connection. Will use teflon tape before i screw them in.
    Thanks for your time and let me know of any concerns that i need to address.

    Attached Files:

  13. markts30

    markts30 Commercial Plumber

    Messages:
    630
    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
    Looks like you have lots of room to drop the disposal...
    The connection is a slip connection from the dishwasher T to the PTrap.
    Loosen the nut, remove the pipe, cut off what you need to and replace the pipe....
    If you don't think you have enough room to do that, replace the dishwasher T with a 1-1/2 slip extension (no T) and hook the dishwahser up to the knock out on the disposal...
    (make sure you knock out the plug and remove the plastic piece....)
    .
    If you don't know if you can get your supply to fit the shutoffs, just cut the copper lines a couple inches above the valves, Use a 3/8" compression coupling on the copper and run a braided flex from the other side of the compression coupling to the faucet.
    IMHO, I would go with a nice set of 1/4 turn new angle stops and cut the old ones off and replace them...
    You seem to have lots of room...
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2007
  14. Randyj

    Randyj Master Plumber

    Messages:
    1,047
    Location:
    Alabama
    Very different than the ONE sink I have had experience with. However, it appears that your problem may have a simple solution. I think all you will have to do is remove the white pipe above the trap (dishwasher adapter) and the other pipe (tail piece extension) above the other trap... install sink then shorten the pipe as needed to fit back in the trap. Some of these PVC tubes have washers molded on the ends others do not and will have a white plastic nylon washer. The plastic nut is usually fine if just hand tightened (as tight as your hand can do it!). If it is impossible to get the correct distance by cutting these tubes then you will have to go to the other end of the trap and lower that pipe by lowering the fitting behind that wall. You need these parts to align as perfectly as possible so there is no shear stress (pulling to sides) and everything should slide together and fit smoothly....otherwise you have increased chance of leaks. Completely disconnecting traps will make it easier to re-assemble as you can simply slip them up to make the connections. If you have no trouble getting the traps & tubes apart ...about the only tool you will need is a hacksaw to cut the bottom of the tubes to fit....assuming you won't have to lower the connection on the other side of the wye.
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2007
  15. ddagsyn

    ddagsyn New Member

    Messages:
    50
    Thank you for all your replies

    What is the difference between a compression nut and a coupling nut?

    Please look a the connection via the copper tube to the faucet and let me know if that is a coupling nut or compression how does it make a water tight connection to the faucet?

    thanks

    Attached Files:

  16. Randyj

    Randyj Master Plumber

    Messages:
    1,047
    Location:
    Alabama
    Not a perfect picture...but I think I can see it okay... It appears to be a normal compression fitting.
    Generally, a compression fitting will have a nut and a ferrule which slip over the pipe being inserted into the fitting. The ferrule is a ring that fits snuglly over the pipe. When the nut is tightened it compresses it which makes it squeeze tightly around the pipe. The fitting will have a beveled inside edge which makes a tight fit to the end or bottom of the compression ring (ferrule). As far as a "coupling nut"... well, there are compression couplings and various and sundry other types of couplings...generally the other one might be a "flare coupling"...which would also have a nut... so either one would have a "coupling nut". The flare or compression type fitting would be the differences. After all these years I still have difficulty remembering which is a union and which is a coupling...one of those freudian slips that confuses me constantly. I just refer to one as a "sleeve" and the other as "one of them hickeys that has a nut to hold two pipes together".
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