New homeowner...existing water softerner...no manual...not regenerating

Discussion in 'Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r' started by msomerville, Feb 15, 2010.

  1. msomerville

    msomerville New Member

    Messages:
    12
    Location:
    Kent, OH
    Well I moved into this home a few months back and now the water softener isn't regenerating properly (most time not at all). The first time I noticed something was off the brine tank didn't fill back up and there was a solid chunk of salt in the bottom. I was able to manually start another cycle, and everything seemed OK for a week or two. Some time went by when I noticed some discoloration and some odor from the water. At that time I was not able to get it cycled manually. Two days later it kicks on out of nowhere and when it is finished fills my brine tank up past what I believe is normal levels.:confused:

    I don't have a manual for this thing. I don't even know the manufacturer. There is a tag inside the control with Brookfield,WI USA. I know the city and state that at least part of the control is made now who made it???

    I have a link to my photobucket album with pictures of Water Softener.

    http://s833.photobucket.com/albums/zz259/msomerville12/water softener/

    Thanks for the help!

    Matt
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2010
  2. Akpsdvan

    Akpsdvan In the Trades

    Messages:
    1,480
    Location:
    Alaska
    For starters it is a Fleck 9000 valve..

    Here is the link for the manual...
    http://www.pentairwatertreatment.com/PentairFiles/Pentair%20Water%20Treatment/Manuals/9000%20Service%20Manual%2040944.pdf

    download the manaul.

    If the meter cable is not in the meter cap or in the timer assembly that will keep the unit from cycling when the gallons are used up and changing tank that is is service.

    Plug the unit in... meter will count the water used, but the unit will not be able to clean when it needs to. It will clean when your house has used 800 gallons.. number of people X 60gallons per person = gallons per day. Unit will clean when that 800 is used, no matter the time of day or night.
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2010
  3. msomerville

    msomerville New Member

    Messages:
    12
    Location:
    Kent, OH
    Thanks for the manual. I had looked on their website before but had no clue what I was looking for.

    The meter cable is plugged in.

    It seems like some of the symptoms would maybe point me in the direction of some clogged screens/filters (just guessing here).

    Could the brine tube be clogged and not allowing the unit to function properly. Looking at some of the diagrams I have no desire to dive into some of the components...the brine tube maybe.

    Would it be something to try myself? It seems like if I were to tear into there, that the O rings should be replaced also (if this is even the problem).

    Thanks for the help.
  4. Akpsdvan

    Akpsdvan In the Trades

    Messages:
    1,480
    Location:
    Alaska
    For the most part the injector on the twin does not get plugged, but it can happen... not letting the unit pull the brine out of the brine tank. another thing that can happen in letting more water into the brine tank is the brine piston. page 12 part #12 group.

    If you are handy with a good parts book,, then you should be able to do a good part or most of it.

    PM if you would like phone number..
  5. msomerville

    msomerville New Member

    Messages:
    12
    Location:
    Kent, OH
    After looking at some of the diagrams I think I will call a pro. I don't want to get in there and screw something up and costing me more money. Thanks to you I now know the make and model. Now I just need to find someone reputable. I just feel a little foolish for calling someone out for something that may just need cleaned.

    This may be a dumb question, but is water softener repair a specialty or do most plumbers have the know how?

    Again thanks for all your help.
    Matt
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2010
  6. nhmaster

    nhmaster Master Plumber

    Messages:
    3,189
    Location:
    S. Maine
    Depends on who you talk to. Most of the plumbers in my area have filtration and pump experience.
  7. Akpsdvan

    Akpsdvan In the Trades

    Messages:
    1,480
    Location:
    Alaska
    I would go along with Peter... there are some around here that know what they are doing, but there are some that have no clue and are not looking for a clue when it comes to water treatment...

    A company that deals with the fleck 9000 will most likely have parts for the unit on hand, I know that I have any number of parts for that unit along with other fleck units for some one that needs repair or service..

    Most likely the challenges that you are having are Not in the main pistons and seals spacer area.. it is in the brine injector and piston.. or in the brine float assembly.

    From the photo's I am not seeing water leak marks from the two pistons that are in the middle of the back plate.
  8. Bob999

    Bob999 In the Trades

    Messages:
    448
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    An independent water treatment dealer who regularly services Fleck valves would be your best choice.
  9. msomerville

    msomerville New Member

    Messages:
    12
    Location:
    Kent, OH
    My gut says that there is something going on with the brine float assembly. I seem to remember looking at the casing for the float and you can kind of see through it to see that the float doesn't rise as far up into the casing as it used to. I don't really remember for sure though. How high should that float sit in the casing in a standby mode? I thought I remembered it rising to the top before and now it rises half way.

    Would any of this keep me from starting a cycle manuallly?
  10. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    My experience is that most plumbers don't do water treatment, and many that did would not service a 9000/9100. Many water treatment dealers wouldn't either, especially if they didn't sell it.

    That float is not used to set the height of the water in the salt tank, it is to cut off the water going into the salt tank if it gets too high; a safety system.

    There may be a small screen filter in an end of the brine line that could be blocked. Or the brine line flow control (BLFC) button could be blocked. It is in the fitting on the control valve that the brine line connects to. The 23x0 valve the float hangs on could be blocked or stuck.
  11. Akpsdvan

    Akpsdvan In the Trades

    Messages:
    1,480
    Location:
    Alaska
    Photo of the brine float and casing that you are taliking about?

    page 7 of the manual shows the timer assembly that you have.
    There is a white or raised dot that is on the center star type wheel the will be lined up with the raised pointer.. by moving the star type wheel clock wise just a little you should hear a motor start, that is the start of the change tanks and then the cleaning cycle.
  12. Akpsdvan

    Akpsdvan In the Trades

    Messages:
    1,480
    Location:
    Alaska
    If you have tried to cycle the unit and it is pluged in and the motor on the back side of where the meter and dial is at is warm and the motor to the far right(drive motor) is cold and stays cold does not run, then that motor died.... and time for it to be replaced with another drive motor.
  13. msomerville

    msomerville New Member

    Messages:
    12
    Location:
    Kent, OH
    Thanks for all of the suggestions guys.
    I will check out the motors and see if I can tell a difference in temp after warm up.
    I think I may be able to check the brine line for blockages without doing too much damage.
    I have an axe and a sledge hammer that should get me in there.;)

    I added the pics of the brine casing to photobucket

    http://s833.photobucket.com/albums/zz259/msomerville12/water softener/

    ps. page seven deals with valve to tank installation. Page 12 shows the star shaped wheel. I've heard it work instantly before and now nothing when I turn it. It will rotate fully then click and do nothing.

    Thanks,
    Matt
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2010
  14. Akpsdvan

    Akpsdvan In the Trades

    Messages:
    1,480
    Location:
    Alaska
    If you have truned that little star wheel just a little and that drive motor has not started turning that bottum shaft... and the unit is getting power then that motor either is not getting power, one of the wire nuts is off... or one of the micro switches is not getting the power.... but more than likely the motor is toast....

    On the brine float... pull that cap off the 4" brine well.... undo the 3/8 nut... that little nut on the out side of the brine well... make sure that if one blows into the point where the 3/8 nut came from that if the float is down,,,, no air gets through..
  15. msomerville

    msomerville New Member

    Messages:
    12
    Location:
    Kent, OH
    Well I plugged it in to see if there was a difference in temp between the motors. The softener regenerated, but i never noticed the drive motor warm up like the other motor.

    If the drive motor is bad will the unit regenerate?

    Best I can tell there is no air getting though when the float is down.
  16. Akpsdvan

    Akpsdvan In the Trades

    Messages:
    1,480
    Location:
    Alaska
    The drive motor is only going to running for very few seconds, just long enought to move the cams to the next spot on the wheel.

    If the drive motor is bad , the unit will not switch tanks nor will it move the upper piston to the different spots for the cleaning cycle.


    When the float is down the air should be able to go either way, if it is up the air should not be able to go down.

    There was awhile back a float assembly that had a rubber washer go bad it is at the base of the float arm.. where it goes into the body of the assembly. if that rubber went bad, then it could not draw water out of the brine tank, but it could and would let water in to the brine tank.

    If I am losing you on this and you need the phone... pm me and I can send it to you.. no cost...
  17. msomerville

    msomerville New Member

    Messages:
    12
    Location:
    Kent, OH
    I think I am following you.

    When the system regenerated it was drawing from the brine tank so maybe the rubber washer wouldn't be the problem here.

    I should see the lower shaft start to rotate when I turn the star shaped dial. The fact that this isn't happening might point me in the direction of the drive motor.

    If I took a multi-meter and tried to measure the output of the motor would that tell me anything about the motor? Since the motor only works for a few seconds it may be pretty hard to measure.

    Thanks for your help with this.
  18. Akpsdvan

    Akpsdvan In the Trades

    Messages:
    1,480
    Location:
    Alaska
    There is a way of "hot wirring" the main drive motor....

    Kids,,, do not do this at home with out an adult over seeing the job....

    unplug the unit.. find the 2 black wires from the main power supply.. then find the 2 wires coming off the motor.. there should be some wire nuts , undoing the nuts, and taking the wires from the moter to the main power line, nut them together.. then plug the unit in... if the motor is good it will turn.. if it is not good nothing will happen.

    Kids,,, do not do this at home with out an adult over seeing the job....


    On to the brine.. if the washer was bad in that float assembly it would draw air in that spot, more air than water..

    The reason that I say that the injector normally does not plug is because there is always treated water going through it.. one is using the fresh tank to clean the out going tank, and when it fills the brine tank it is with treated water.

    Now if the main drive motor stopped when the unit was in brine fill , the float would stop the water from continuing to go into the brine tank,, it is a safety float.. some will use it as the main stop... but really it is the fail safe on the brine tank fill...
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2010
  19. msomerville

    msomerville New Member

    Messages:
    12
    Location:
    Kent, OH
    Well the drive motor is working when I hot wired it.

    I am going to empty the brine tank one more time and make sure everything is clean, and if that doesn't do the trick I am gonna call someone out to look at it.

    Again thanks for your help.

    I will post my findings.
  20. Akpsdvan

    Akpsdvan In the Trades

    Messages:
    1,480
    Location:
    Alaska
    Look up page 46 and fig 46 of the wiring .. if the drive motor is good with the hot wire, then there could be a break some place else, some thing not tight and letting the power flow when needed..

    There is really no need to empty the brine tank, just send the unit into a cycle and it will pull the brine out.

    Unhook the meter cable from the meter cap and swing out the timer assembly , then turn that star wheel just far enough to push down both micro switchs and check back in x minutes to make sure that it is moving along as it should.
Similar Threads: homeownerexisting water
Forum Title Date
Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r Water Softener Prep for Turning Water Off to House Monday at 7:51 AM
Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r PH of softened water Jul 21, 2014
Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r Water softener effect on pH Jul 11, 2014
Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r Please help: Culligan water softener Jul 10, 2014
Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r Need new whole-house water softener Jul 6, 2014

Share This Page