New Home - Looking for Water Treatment System Input

Discussion in 'Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r' started by Gilley7997, Mar 4, 2013.

  1. Gilley7997

    Gilley7997 New Member

    Messages:
    20
    Location:
    Illinois
    I just wanted to double check some thoughts of mine after reading through the posts on here there seem to be many knowledgeable people on here.

    We just bought a new home that was just completed. When they built the home they put in a loop for the water softener, so that is a plus. They also tee'd off before the loop a line to the two outdoor fixtures we have on the house. The one odd think I noticed about this was that there is a 1" Supply line running as far as this T (which is right before the loop) at the T the loop and the outdoor water line then goes down to 3/4" Copper. Should this one in line be extened to my water treatement set-up? Is there any benefit or does anyone know why they would have done this?

    We had someone from Kinetico come out and do a water test, and show us there units, they seem to be very nice units, but I believe I can do almost as well at a fraction of the cost elsewhere. My self personally have no experience with working with Water Softeners, but I have experience with running my own water lines and basic DIY tasks.

    Here is the information on our current water situation from our City Water:
    • I measured the flow rate out of the bath tub, and was filling a 2 Gallon Container in about 10 seconds. If my math is right that puts my Flow Rate at about about 12GPM
    • Current People in Home: 2, but want to plan ahead for a family and want this unit to work for that purpose so trying to plan this number at 4.
    • 3 Full Bathrooms in the home.
    • Hardness Value: Approx. 18gpg
    • No Measurable Iron recorded
    • Ph: 7.6
    • 332 ppm TDS as Measured from our Drinking Water Dispenser on the Fridge (which currently has a filter)
    • We have no multiple shower head showers at this time.
    • The Chlorine Test did reveal that there was a small amount of Chlorine in the water, but we are aware that this can change as determined by the city.


    Based on this information, I am leaning towards possibly this type of a set-up for this house.

    1) Clack In and Out Upflow Carbon Filter
    • 12x52 Vortech Mineral Tank
    • 2.0 cubic foot Coconut Shell Carbon
    • Distributor tube w/Top Basket
    • Clack Upflow In/Out valve with bypass, and 1" inlet PVC connectors
    • 7-9 gpm service flow rate
    • Question on this is one? Is this sufficient for my needs? Do I need a backflow filter or do I need a filter at all. If you are going to run a filter like this do you need an inline sediment filter before this one?


    2) Fleck 5600SXT 48000 Grain Capacity
    • 10x54 resin tank
    • 1.5 cubic feet of resin (standard 8% resin)
    • 12 gpm service flow rate
    • 2.5 gpm backwash flow rate


    Do I need??

    3) Microline Reverse Osmosis to feed the Refrigerator Drinking water


    This is my thought for the system, for this new house. I just want to set this up for long term and quality water.

    I appreciate any thoughts, or even recommendations on places to purcahse the equipment, if you would like to PM those to me.

    You guys have taught me a lot just by reading the forums and I want to thank you for that already and look forward to your knowledgeable input on my particular situation. Let me know if I am totally out of my mind.

    Thanks!
  2. lifespeed

    lifespeed Member

    Messages:
    321
    Location:
    California
    If the plumbing both before and after the softener loop is 1", then it would be worthwhile to upgrade the softener loop to 1" pipe as well. If everything after the softener is also 3/4" pipe, then upgrading the softener to 1" won't buy you much. Also choose the Fleck 7000 for the softener IF you upgrade pipe sizes. Or even if you don't. It has larger internal ports, while 5600SXT is only 3/4". For maintenance and parts reasons, it can be convenient to choose the same valve for both the carbon filter and softener. 2.0 cu ft carbon is OK, might consider upgrading the softener to 2.0 cu ft for higher service flow rate and low salting options.

    Check on your municipal supply, chlorine or chloramine? If it is chloramine use Centaur carbon for your backwashed filter. And definitely go with an RO for drinking water at the sink and fridge. Best to supply it with softened water.
  3. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,816
    Location:
    Ontario California
    Upflow GAC is not recommended except in very controlled applications. A downflow with backwashing is the proper way to do it. Considering your high flow rate potential a 2 cu. ft. would be the minimum size. An upflow GAC will completely fluidize the bed at 12 GPM in a 12" diameter tank. This will not allow for good contact of the water to the media compared to a packed bed system with intermittent backwashing.

    I would recommend a 7000 GAC backwashing system, a 7000 softener, and a generic style RO for your drinking water system with a permeate pump.

    I would use a gravl underbed instead of the Vortech tank. Be sure to order the 7000 w/ the 32MM distributor.

    PM sent
  4. Gilley7997

    Gilley7997 New Member

    Messages:
    20
    Location:
    Illinois
    I was wondering about this, I know some people say to do it, others don't. Is this really a requirement. Most of the places I have visited online I have not seen that gravel is added prior to the medium

    Is there a reason that we would be looking at the 7000 series rather than the 5600? Is there a limitation on the 5600 that doesn't work for me? The whole house is 3/4" Copper after the T and currently through where the water softner loop would need to go, it would actually be more work to make this 1" to the devices.
  5. Gilley7997

    Gilley7997 New Member

    Messages:
    20
    Location:
    Illinois
    I should have read more before I posted, so the larger ports on the 7000 will they actuallyy help that much considering the line feeding it will only be 3/4"?
  6. lifespeed

    lifespeed Member

    Messages:
    321
    Location:
    California
    The 5600 is limited in the size of tank (especially carbon's higher requirements) it can backwash because of small internal ports. The larger internal ports are still a benefit as pressure drop is pipe frictional loss multiplied by distance. Obviously it is not as big a deal as if you had 1" plumbing, but there is only upside to using the 7000 valve vs the 5600, aside from a few extra dollars for the valve.
  7. Gilley7997

    Gilley7997 New Member

    Messages:
    20
    Location:
    Illinois
    Thank you all for your input, and I'm trying to understand, when these systems list there specifications like this:

    System Specifications:

    Service Flow Rate: 9 GPM @ 15 psi drop
    Required Backwash Rate: 9 GPM
    Regeneration Type: Timer Initiated
    Electrical Power Requirements: 120v/60hz.
    Warranty: Control 5 Years/ Tanks 10 Years
    Compact overall system dimensions: 12x14x56

    What exactly is the Service Flow Rate Referencing, the minimum required to use? The maximum flow that it can support? I am confused, I tried to do a search but couldn't find anything specifically. Obviously the specs I have here are from a Filter, but the same information I assume can be applied to a water softener.

    A lot of the online vendors I have found don't say that a gravel bed is used or is specifically used. I guess I can determine this with a phone call.
  8. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,816
    Location:
    Ontario California
    All water treatment systems have a service flow, both minimum and maximum. If you go outside of those parameters, the systems ability to treat the water may not be as advertised. A 4 cu. ft. softener may be the right size for a house from a capacity standpoint, but from a service flow stanpoint it will be very improper. A 16" diameter softener tank has a low service flow of approx. 4.6 gpm. Less than that and you run the potential of chanelling etc. Exceeding service flows will cause hardness leakage and wear and tear on the resin to name a few problems. Peak flows are a systems maximum flow rate regardless of service flows. Many applications will exceed the service flows intermittently without any problem. It is highly recommended to stay within service flows if possible.

    Service flows of medias vary greatly. GAC has a technical service flow rate maximum of 6 GPM on a 2 cu. ft. 12" tank. This is for removal of organic chemicals etc, not just chlorine. Check with the media manufacturers specifications for detailed information on proper flow rates.

    Hope this helps,
  9. Gilley7997

    Gilley7997 New Member

    Messages:
    20
    Location:
    Illinois
    I just wanted to thank everyone for there help.

    I did end up purchasing a system, I will let everyone know how the install goes. This is what I ended up with:

    Fleck 7000SXT 64,000 system with the 18x33 Brine Tank and a Fleck 7000 Carbon Filter as well both are in a 12x48 tank

    So I guess the next question is setting this thing. I know it's oversized for our current situation with just the 2 of us. It's not oversized for the 4 bedroom house though. So how do I set this thing to make it the most efficient for now.

    Refresher on the facts:

    Flow Rate of 12GPM
    Current People in Home: 2
    Hardness Value: 18gpg
    No Measurable Iron recorded
    Ph: 7.6
    332 ppm TDS as Measured from our Drinking Water Dispenser on the Fridge (which currently has a filter)
    The Chlorine Test did reveal that there was a small amount of Chlorine in the water, but we are aware that this can change as determined by the city.

    Thanks for all the help!
  10. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,816
    Location:
    Ontario California
    7000 2 email.jpg

    Be sure the BLFC and injector are the correct size, hope this helps.
  11. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    And as you well know, if the residential softener is regenerated in a timely manner, once every 7 - 10 days, there will be no channeling. BTW, IIRC you said 4.2 gpm before.
  12. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,816
    Location:
    Ontario California
    As I well know, channelling has little to do with time between regenerations. Water will take the path of least resistance. Resin beads being round do not settle the same way irregular medias do (GAC, Birm, Pyrolox etc.). This is why resin based filter systems do not need to be backwashed and they do not channel. A good example would be the critical application of Arsenic removal. A very popular method is downflow, non backwashing ferric coated anion resin medias in a simple tank with an in/out head. If channelling were a problem due to the lack of backwashing these systems would be very dangerous when in fact they are one of the more preferred and reliable methods of arsenic removal. Again, not maintaining flow rates within the specified range, high or low is the main concern, not a lack of backwashing.

    Extreme low flow allows the water to follow a single, small path that is not well distributed and exhaustion of the media along that path can occur prior to the majority of the bed being used. Excessive flow will cause a lack of required contact time which can result in incomplete filtration of the water.


    Hope this helps.
  13. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    You didn't answer his question about the 9 gpm @ 15 psi pressure drop. And no one mentioned a 4.0 cuft softener but...

    Really, you want to say that the length of time between regenerations of a softener have nothing to do with preventing channeling. Show us where you get that from.
  14. Tom Sawyer

    Tom Sawyer In the Trades

    Messages:
    3,128
    Location:
    Maine
    I have equipment regenerating at 14 to 25 days operating for years without channeling issues. I do not believe that channeling is caused by length of time between regen's. Flow rate is the cause of channeling.
  15. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,816
    Location:
    Ontario California
    As I stated earlier, and is well known in the industry by professionals who understand the physics of medias as it relates to the shapes of those medias... Resin (typically round) does not channel in a downflow application. In very low flow situations, water may not evenly disperse across the resin bed thus allowing for the water flow to follow the rules of physics, (path of least resistance). This is one reason why "dispersers" not screens are used on larger commercial systems, to help disperse the water flow. This is why systems have recommended low flow ratings, and is also why non regenerable resin based medias are typically installed without a backwashing or regenerating valve. Do you install a backwashing valve on mixed bed DI tanks that are going to be in service for a year? Ferric coated Anion resin for Arsenic removal? Or intermittent/low water use applications for protable soft water exchange? These never get a backwash valve. Chanelling does not occur. For more information, please read the specs from the following manufacturers. http://www.solmetex.com/water/technologies.html.

    Hope this is helpful,
  16. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    So now you're saying channeling is not the cause of the too low flow problem, although too low flow MAY NOT evenly disperse across the resin bed or, it may not follow the path of least resistance.

    Then what is the problem with low flow? May not, usually doesn't... are you ever going to nail this down by telling us what will usually or normally or actually HAPPEN with low flow? That would be for a down flow residential water softener.

    And as far as I know, we are talking down flow service and brining right?

    Now can you also stick with the regular/common industry standard ion exchange water softening resins instead of linking to a site that is talking about a one of a kind: "comprised of a hybrid resin bead" with no mention of residential water softening?
  17. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,816
    Location:
    Ontario California
    LOL, no matter what I say, you will disagree.
  18. Tom Sawyer

    Tom Sawyer In the Trades

    Messages:
    3,128
    Location:
    Maine
    What he said LOL
  19. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Yes I will unless you say in this thread what you said in another thread about the same disagreement. Here is a copy:
    [​IMG] Originally Posted by ditttohead [​IMG]

    And yes, Nelsen doesnt bother with residential flow recommendations, .... Their entire commercial line has recommended minimum and maximum flows.

    A 4 cu. ft. system should work fine but will be outside of the engineering specifications for many residential applications.

    Damn, you finally got it right! Nelsen does not have minimum flow rates for residential but do for their commercial softeners.

    And a 4.0 cuft in residential works fine.

    That is from the thread linked below and was posted a short time ago.
    http://www.terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?50842-Just-a-few-water-softener-questions/page2
  20. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,816
    Location:
    Ontario California
    lol, see post 17
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