New fleck 7000 sxt questions

Discussion in 'Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r' started by Steve424, Dec 2, 2012.

  1. Steve424

    Steve424 New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    Pa
    I have been reading in this forum recently to learn as much as I can to install my own softener. I have it mostly installed just a few questions before I finish up and run it. Thank you very much for any help in advance!!

    A few details :
    Compensated hardness 10
    4 people in house - conservative users
    9x48 tank
    Round 18x 33 brine tank with grid
    1 cubic ft of high cap resin
    .125 blfc

    Using 60 gallon per day and rounding up I need about 20,000 for 8 days. Using Gary's chart I was going for 6lb salt per cubic ft and since mine is 1 cubic ft a total of 6 lb. From what I've read I will need 2 gallons of brine and with the .125 blfc I need to set BF for 16 minutes. Is that correct?

    If that is correct since I have 18x33 round salt tank with grid - is 2 gallons of brine enough to go above grid? I haven't poured water in to check but it just looks like it won't be enough. Or does it not suck all brine out of tank so that the 2 gallons BF goes on top of some residual brine that will make water level go above grid. If not do I need a smaller tank? If my tank is ok how much water do I pour into tank initially?

    Also could you give recommended times / settings for other regeneration steps, plus override days and reserve - I was thinking of setting for 15 percent?

    Also I ran drain line, only 1/2 inch inside diam. at my lowes was braided PVC hose which tends to kind of flatten when making turns will this work ok or do I need to look elsewhere for a more ridged drain line, mine is about 10 feet long.

    Also I've heard people commenting on the disadvantages of the large size/space required for for the 7000sxt and I ordered mine with the $20 manufacturers elbow kit which puts bypass vertical behind tank and it worked great - it just clears the 9 inch tank diameter.

    A lot of questions I know, your help and know how is greatly appreciated?
    Steve
  2. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,941
    Location:
    Ontario California
    16 minutes is correct.
    15% calculates out close enough, it should be fine.
    2 gallons above the grid... I dont have my chart handy, and I have not had to remember those numbers for at least 15 years since I stopped using the Erie 541. Depending on the type of grid, it may not matter. Does your grid have the leg holes? or it is a completely flat top grid? If it is the flat top grid, and the water does not reach the grid, you can simply remove the grid, or raise the bottom air check. I have my salt chart at my desk, I can answer it more accurately tomorrow. How high is the grid off the bottom? You can easily test it by filling water to above the grid, and simply run it through a manual regeneration, an hour and 30 minutes later your question will be answered.
    The normal start up procedure is to add 5 gallons intitially, then regenerate. The system will automatically fill the brine tank after that to the proper amount.
    I would use "funny pipe" by toro, it is a high quality semi rigid black tube that uses the same toro barb fittings. This small of a drin line will be fine considering your systems maximum drain rate is 2.0 GPM.

    Only one person here who hates the 7000 continually comments on the size of the valve. As I have shown with picture proof, it is the same size as the 5600 and 5600SXT when the standard meter is used. But picture proof, technical drawings, etc, are all not good enough. Maybe your comment will help to educate the misinformed.

    Congrats on your new system. It is a good one. By my calculations, it should regenerate every 8-10 days.
  3. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    If you have the 2310 safety brine float in a brine well in the salt tank, there is always 2.5"+ of brine water left in the tank at the end of the brine draw. Your 2 gallons mix with that brine water. Your grid should have a hole or holes in the coffee cup shaped legs and they fill with salt and the hole/holes allow water into that salt to dissolve it. So your refill water doesn't have to go above the grid.

    You need to use the drain line that came with the softener unless you didn't get any. It should be 5/8" OD (CTS = copper tubing size) x 1/2" ID PE tubing or just at a tad smaller ID and it's usually opaque so you can see any color through it.

    Since the white reinforced clear PVC flattens out if bent, it will kink over time especially if water doesn't drain out of it after a regeneration and more than likely, it will kink during a regeneration. So don't use it.

    Then to me you are saying that without paying the $20 more for the long elbows and then having to deal with their plumbing option limitations, that without all that, your softener would be much farther out from the wall by the time you got the plumbing finished with an elbow on both the inlet and outlet.

    People that have an old softener and replace it with a new one with a 7000 valve have complained about that, and I say rightfully so.

    That's why I mention its size being larger than most other valves. I mean, most people that buy a softener have it installed or install it themselves and see how it fits their space as opposed to looking at a picture of the valve from slightly off center of the front and being told there is no problem. And then there is the front of the 7000 that in many cases hangs out over the edge of the tank. Also, your 9" tank is 9" ID and closer to 10" OD than to 9".

    BTW, a 1.0 cuft (a 32K as they are mistakenly called) has a constant SFR of 9 gpm and usually that is too low for a family of 4 and/or if you fill a tub while other water is being used. And you'd have picked up 3 more gpm and better salt efficiency with a 1.5 cuft. And that's why I always insisted on speaking to anyone wanting to buy a softener from me and I didn't place the order until I talked to anyone that bought off my web site if they hadn't talked to me first.
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2012
  4. Steve424

    Steve424 New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    Pa
    Gary I wasn't singling you out regarding the size of the 7000, I don't even recall who on here mentioned that I just know I've seen it mentioned multiple times before and even company I bought from cautioned that it was very large but in my case I was simply saying it worked fine and installed quickly with elbow kit. Without I agree it would have stuck way out. Front overhang wasn't issue in my case but I acknowledge.

    Back to my issues:

    I did more checking this morning and I added 3 gallons to reach the 2.5 inch then 2 more gallons representing my BF for total five and I was still 3/8 inch below grid top. My grid does have the 4 cone shaped posts to bottom but no holes in sides ( which I thought was odd) just couple holes in bottom of cone that Lies against bottom of tank.
    I don't want to run at BF of 24 to get roughly another inch of water, so are you saying ditto head that I should dismantle 2310 by removing check side line - I assume that is a compression fitting at top and cutting say 1 inch off line and reinstalling to get me 3.5 inch residual brine to go with my 2 gallon BF?

    Or remove grid? Don't I need that thing?? Won't I get bridging?

    After doing these volume checks I don't think there is any use running a regen without salt to check water level - I think I need to correct one way or another.

    I will try HD today for another type of more ridged drain line
  5. Steve424

    Steve424 New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    Pa
    When I tried to put all this in at one time it timed out on me so here is rest

    Gary , I understand and acknowledge your SFR data but we are very conservative - all tubs which will be very rarely used are 2.5 gpm and showers even less, laundry tub is 2 gpm , no softened hose bibs. 1.6 gpf toilets. I know it is possible to pass if I turn multiple things on but we just won't do this - I will check max gpm on Meter over time and let you know if I am passing ever. Not to say that he is right but even culligan man wanted to install 1 cubic ft.

    Looking at your chart I didn't even think bigger was suggested since you don't chart for smaller salt dose settings such as around 4 which is what I think you are meaning? Using a 1.5 with a BF of 16 still to give 4 lb per cubic ft is that correct? I know it is to late but I just like to understand ?

    I have really enjoyed learning and doing on my own with all the info on this site and everybody's help here instead of just paying for an installed machine in my basement that I am clueless about. Gary this is not a criticism but why don't you expand your chart to include those lower salt doses if that is what you meant? A lot of people like me look at that and since you are retired we can't call you. Your site has a lot of good info but it seems to be missing that and it is difficult piecing all this info together from blog sites - though it has been fun trying.

    Everybody's time and help here is a much need help since like in my case and probably many others my dealer recommended setting for 32 k and BF of 24. I know this works but seems crazy!!

    I will appreciate both of yours or others recommendation to correct brine tank issue and also regeneration override days?
    Thank you
    Steve
  6. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,941
    Location:
    Ontario California
    The holes in the bottom of the legs should give you the flow into the legs but... it is always recommended, (not required) that the water level go above the grid.

    A brine grid does not eliminate salt bridging. A salt grid is primarily used for allowing the use of smaller brine tanks. Salt displaces approximately 1/2 of the water space. By using a ridiculous 20" tall salt grid, you could use an 18x33 brine tank for a 15 cu. ft system regenerated at 4 pounds per cu. ft. Obviously this is absurd, but it is technically feasible. We regularly use grids, they have little negative affect if any, other than they add a couple dollars to the cost, and they can hide the dirt in the system. With or without a grid, the brine tanks should be cleaned every year or so. Cleaning is very simple, just let the salt run low, empty the tank, hose it out with water, a mild solution of bleach, rinse, refill with 5 galloons of water, fill with salt. The brine tanks can stay fairly clean, or they can get really disgusting depending on the salt availability in your area. As you could imagine, transporting salt canbe fairly expensive, so most salts tend to come from the most local source. Mined salt tends to be very dirty, manufactured pellet salt is very clean, solr salt is 50/50, some are extremely clean, others are as dirty as the mined salt.

    As to SFR, it is always recommended to stay under these flow rates, regardless, resin is cheap, easy to replace, and even if you exceed the maximium recommended flow rates on a rare occassion, it will be fine. My problem with the 1 cu. ft. units is their low recommended flow, and their almost identical cost to a unit that is 50% larger.
  7. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    No problem Steve.

    Your grid and the water level will work very well for your type softener. Water above the grid isn't needed. The water below the air check is fully saturated and the new water has days to dissolve salt and really, that only takes a few hours. You're worried about nothing so forget it and see how things go.

    As to my web site... the info is designed to make the person study some but you can use a salt dose as small as the control valve allows. And other than the chart I always spoke in total lbs to my prospective customer rather than in lbs/cuft so as to prevent confusion. And because your salt dose programming isn't in lbs/cuft, it usually is based on total minutes of refill for the total lbs. unless the control asks for total lbs as the Clack WS-1 does.

    I'd like to hear your max gpm a few weeks after you start using the softener.

    Also, hadn't though of it until now but... with salt in the grid legs, your refill water will get up above the grid.
  8. Steve424

    Steve424 New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    Pa
    So does that mean I should just simply remove grid and be sure to clean yearly ?
  9. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,941
    Location:
    Ontario California
    I would ignore it, leave the grid in place, for 95% of the people your design will work fine. If you have fairly dirty salt, simply clean the brine tank annually. If it is clean salt, then it is still recommended to be cleaned annually, but very few customers do that. If you removed the grid, the system will work exactly the same.

    The water will dissolve the proper amount of salt, it may take a couple hourse instead an an hour, but since most softeners have several days, if not weeks between regenerations, it will have adequate time to fully saturate the water with approximately 3 pounds of salt per gallon.

    As to the water being below the grid, and dissolving salt, then going above the grid??? Huh?? Not sure how that works, 3 pounds of salt in a gallon of water does not add enought volume to raise the water level significantly.

    If it were my system, I would remove the grid. I am not much of a fan of grids, but again, there really is no negative to them either for the vast majority of applications.
  10. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    No, leave the grid as it is and when you get salt in the tank, it will fill the grid legs with salt and displace the water high enough to go over the grid although that is not required because of the holes in the grid legs.

    I don't suggest cleaning a salt tank annually and especially one with a grid. There is no reason to do that and in many cases doing it will cause a brine draw problem due to loose compression fittings allowing air suction instead of heavy brine water.

    And I suggest that maintaining the salt level at half a tank makes working on the salt tank much easier than working on one that is full of salt if you have to work on a salt tank for some reason. And keeping the tank full usually causes the guy to eventually forget to check the level and he runs the softener out of salt.
  11. Steve424

    Steve424 New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    Pa
    Gary
    I was typing last message before I saw your remarks. That is funny I never thought about the salt being in grid legs and displacing water.
    So you would leave grid? The weight of all that salt will be pushing bottom of posts tight to bottom of brine tank which is the only place water will leak into salt storage, unless leg volume of salt is enough to displace above grid top. The only holes are on bottom of legs - not sides. Is that still ok?
    Steve
  12. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Are you just playing dumb or what? His salt tank has no salt in it now and with the water he has added to the tank it comes up to 3/8" below the grid.

    When he puts salt in the tank, the salt that goes into the grid legs will displace enough water to cause it to go above the grid. That has nothing to do with dissolved salt in the water....

    Steve, I didn't see your post until now. I have sold many salt tanks with grids like yours, Trust me water will get through that hole in the bottom of the leg and you'll be fine if you stop worrying about everything but, you don't believe the undissolved salt in the grid legs won't raise the water level in the tank? OK, let's say it doesn't, you'll still be OK that way. Or remove the grid, anything that makes ya happy. :)
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2012
  13. Steve424

    Steve424 New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    Pa
    Ok Gary
    I'll quit Beating a dead horse. Going to cross my fingers and think it is above grid with displacement just because I think that is more ideal even though I do believe you that it will work I just happen to have a little bit of OCD.
    I will get better drain line tonite finish hookup and program.
    I will put just a little salt in for test, should I let it run full times on regen steps or advance and if so how long do I let it run in each step?

    As for actual master program times seller told me as follows:
    1st BW. 10
    BD. 60
    2nd BW. 5
    RR. 6
    Do these seem ok?

    Just rechecked with hach and got 8 to 9 grains hardness.
    When I did fe test was completely clear, I even redid with 1/3 volume of water and still clear. I thought both culligan and kinetico said I had a little clear iron like .3 or so, maybe they used something different to test. that is why I was using compensated hardness of 10 to be safe.

    Also regen override day recommendation I was going to go with 10 is that ok?

    Also I didn't mention before,this is well water, do I leave the prefilter installed or pull it?
    I have had same filter in place for 5 years and haven't noticed drop in pressure. Water has only been used in laundry tub over this time because I have been building this house for 6 years, but I have run a lot of water. Yes that is a diff story and the wife is ready to move out of double wide that is falling down around us. Hoping for week before Christmas.
    The point is I don't think I have a lot of sediment just not sure what standard is - does resin need protected or will it work as filter?
    By the way I did buy new cartridge to put in if you advise?
    Thank you!!
    Steve
  14. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,941
    Location:
    Ontario California
    Master program looks just fine, not overly critical.

    regen over-ride, again not critical, I recommend 15-30 days.

    Pre-Filter, if you have no sediment in the water, you can remove it, but since it is there and the replacement cartridges are so cheap, I would leave it. Softeners can easily handle small amounts of sediment, but should not be relied upon for sediment removal. You should change the sediment filter annually, as cheap as they are, and to help keep your water system sanitary. It is also noce to have the housing in place as a way of chlorinating your plumbing. be sure to bypass the softener if you do this. The softener has its own santization porcedure.
  15. Steve424

    Steve424 New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    Pa
    Dittohead
    Thank you!
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