New closet flange, still leaking, help please

[MJH78]

Ok here's my situation. replaced all the subfloor under the toilet in bathroom. Put down new linoleum. The pipe coming up through the floor is a 3" lead pipe. So I go buy a PVC $4 closet flange that fits down INSIDE the lead pipe. It doesn't have the gasket thing on it that you tighten with the screws. So I put the flange down inside the pipe, its a nice snug fit and actually would not go down 100% on one side by hand. Well when I put the 4 screws down in it and screw it to the subfloor it becomes snug to the floor. Also had bought a Jumbo wax ring that has the plastic horn thing on the end. Well, this horn will NOT go down inside that PVC closet flange..its too big. So I say screw that thing, I just go buy a standard wax ring. Adhere it to the horn on the bottom of toilet and secure toilet to the floor. Toilet is nice and secure and snug to the floor. There was a decent amount of tension there from the wax so I had to wiggle the toilet and what not to push it down flush to the floor..a good sign I'm assuming telling me there's enough wax. Ok...I flush it..bad leak underneath the toilet. Something obviously isn't right. I don't know where I went wrong ?? Now before putting that last wax ring on I did take the toilet and sit it down over that flange with no wax to make sure everything was ok and the toilet did sit flush with the floor when I did that.

 

[Jadnashua]

You'll likely never get a good seal the way you did it. Unless you remove the lead, to connect a flange to the lead needs the lead to come up through the proper flange, and be bent over the flange creating a continuous pipe that the wax can seal against. A friction fit like you have will NOT, as you found out, create a good seal.

It sounds like the lead has been cut, so your choice now is to remove it back to a convenient point then build it back up, probably with PVC.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[MJH78]

thanks. So you think the leak was probably occuring down an inch or two inside the pipe where the PVC ended and then just backing up and coming out the sides of the toilet? Would using a flange with the rubber gasket inside that expands out to the lead work?

 

[Kingsotall]

Put the toilet down without wax and flush it and see what happens.

 

[MJH78]

I'm not sure what to make of that suggestion. What purpose would that serve?

 

[Jadnashua]

You may have two problems. One, you are unlikely to get a good seal between the plastic flange and the lead. That connection must not only be water tight, but gas tight, or it will leak sewer gas into the room. But, unless the toilet was mounted offset, flushing normally just directs the waste down the pipe. A funnel could work except for the gas leaks. But, if it is coming out, then something is slowing the waste flow down in the pipe and it's backing up and leaking. So, you probably have a (partial) clog, the slope isn't right, or maybe an incorrectly layed out drain line...maybe too many angles. And, because the lead is somewhat soft, a flange with a gasket may just end up distorting the lead and not making a good seal. It is not designed for a compression fit.

 

[Kingsotall]

It's called troubleshooting. Plumbing ain't a dry business.

 

[MJH78]

Ok I understand your point now. I might try the flange with the expansion seal. come to think of it, my flange might be cockeyed on there. I mean it looks flat, but like I said, I could not get that flange flush to the floor. Maybe had a little too much lead sticking up on that one side..and the side where the leak is surfacing is that side that I couldn't get the flange flush with the floor. Of course when I put the screws to it, it got the outer part of that flange flush with the floor, but it still might be a little bit crooked inside the pipe. thanks for the help

 

[MJH78]

so hypothetically if everything is installed right and I don't have any clogs in the line, if I just put the toilet on the flange with no wax ring and do not even secure it to the flange, if I flush it, it should not leak at all?

 

[Jadnashua]

Many toilets won't leak (waste) if they are centered on the flange over the drain line. It would never pass code or be healthy, though. Modern toilets dump a lot of water fast, and if there is any backup, it will leak. Plus, not having a good seal there would subject you to constant sewer gas leaks into the dwelling, neither pleasant or healthy.

A lead toilet bend is designed to be inserted through a brass flange, then bent over that flange so when you install the wax, you are sealing against a now horizontal extension of the lead. Using any other method is likely to create problems with the seal. It is NOT designed for an internal compression fitting flange. The lead is maleable, and getting a good compression seal on the inside is not reliable.

To do this right, if you have enough lead to bend it over the proper flange, you'd want to do that. If not, you should remove or replace the lead and use the proper flange. If you remove it, you could then rebuild with PVC or ABS, depending on what's available where you live, or have a new lead bend installed (not something you're likley to do right yourself).

Anything else is just hacking the job, and is likely to not give long-term satisfactory results. It may be time for a plumber....

 

[MJH78]

I will probably call a plumber and get lead replaced. Let me ask you this, just so I understand how this is supposed to work. I pulled the toilet and pulled the flange. tipped the toilet over and put the flange around the horn just to see how it fit. Like I said, it's a PVC flange that went inside a 3" lead pipe. Now this flange has two levels of openings, if you will. The first is I'm guessing about a 4" opening that then transitions into the 3" opening. Now the horn on the toilet fits into the 4" opening just fine, but the horn does not actually fit inside the diameter of the piece that eventually goes down inside the pipe. Is this normal? I guess what I'm saying is the inside diameter of the toilet horn and the inside diameter of the bottom section of the PVC are the same so the horn will not actually fit inside it.

 

[Kingsotall]

I didn't mean in any way to leave the toilet like this. Just see if it leaks without a wax ring. If it doesn't the wax rings you are using are hindering the drainage. I'd sonner advise plumbers putty then to set the toilet without a wax ring!

 

[MJH78]

I understand you didn't want me to leave the toilet like that. thanks for the idea. when i pulled the toilet, wax seal was real strong and there didn't appear to be any wax in places it shouldn't be such as inside the flange extension that goes down into the pipe. however, if I were to use this test without the wax ring I dont see how it would not leak becaues like I said the bottom of the toilet horn basically just lines up with that last opening of the toilet flange. see previous post by me. thanks

 

[Jadnashua]

Installed correctly with a lead pipe, the lead comes up on the INSIDE of the flange ring, then is manually bent over the flange ring. So, when you mount the toilet, there's a continuous, solid piece of pipe, and if your wax seal is good, no place for it to leak. Trying to stick something inside the lead pipe is like trying to apply a cork...it doesn't always work, and any changes, temperature, knocking the toilet, etc., will allow it to leak. The lead is not fully rigid, and the plastic flange you have is...plus, the lead is not elastic, so it won't maintain a good seal, if you could get one in the first place.