Neutral/ground at sub breaker panel

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JWelectric

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Cubey said:
You have done nothing to help me. All you have done is argue with me and tell me I'm doing it wrong. You have not once actually given me any actual help or advice. You merely criticized me. That is not helpful. That is just rude.
Son neither of us are trying to be rude and both of us are trying as hard as we can to help you. What we can't do is help you if you are not willing to accept what we have to offer.

You are sold on your idea and when someone is as sold on an idea as your are your idea it is hard to get them to stop and see the flaw in their idea.
It is sorta of like telling some that a rose bush has thorns and will hurt them and then they can't see the rose for looking for the thorns.

Leave my house going in any direction and you will pass a RV park within ten minutes. Within a 50 mile radius of my home there are at least 100 RV parks. Yes I have seen a few go up in smoke and one or two explode.

What you are playing with is fire and I hope that you can see this before it is to late.

I am now finished with this thread!
 

Speedy Petey

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Cubey, I don't know who the hell you are talking to but it certainly is not me. At least not all of it.
You quoted me but are going off on a rant about other things. That was my first reply in this thread and I didn't even quote a code section.

I think you are so wrapped up in getting mad at us because you THINK we are "completely involved in trying to be right" that you don't want to hear anything but what you want to hear.

I realize now why I have stayed away from replying in this thread until now. I think I'll go back to staying away.

You have fun with your project and GOOD LUCK!
 

Cubey

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jwelectric said:
Sorry big guy but your thinking is very flawed. There is no relief to allow a cord to pass through a dryer vent for a RV to be found in Article 400.

If you want to nit pick, the code DOESN'T SAY a lot of stuff. The code is not going to say that because almost no one thinks to do it. Either they are too rich to do any work for themselves and pays everyone to do their work for them and/or they buy a $100,000 RV with 50 amp service. Sorry, but I am not a rich man. I cannot afford a $100,000 RV. Heck I can't even afford a $5,000 used RV. My point is, the code can never give you an example for every possible safe way of doing uncommon things.

If a code specifically says someplace that you cannot run an extension cord from outside to inside then your argument would be completely valid. But so far no one has done this. 400.8/400.7 pretty much knocked down that argument unless someone can provide a link to a code that specifically states that an extension cord cannot be run indoors even through a weatherproof opening in the wall.


The site that you posted also states that an Industrial substations rule 1910.302(a)(1)(vii) but I can’t for the life of me remember seeing one cord and plug connected, can you?

Say what? It points out recreational vehicles. How the heck do you think an RV gets its power? By having the electric company come out and hard wire it to the pole every time you pull into an RV Park?

No the code clearly states that you can not run a cord through a wall from the outside to the inside to plug in an electric heater.

Show me where it says that. No, seriously. I want to see where it says that. If you can show me that, I will be wrong and I will apologize to you.

There is a very good reason why you can’t find 527.4 (C) and it because there is no 527.4 (C).
The Article that governs RV is 551 and 551.44 is the rule for the electrical supply to the RV.
551.44 Power-Supply Assembly.
Each recreational vehicle shall have only one of the following main power-supply assemblies.
(A) Fifteen-Ampere Main Power-Supply Assembly. Recreational vehicles wired in accordance with 551.42(A) shall use a listed 15-ampere or larger main power-supply assembly.
(B) Twenty-Ampere Main Power-Supply Assembly. Recreational vehicles wired in accordance with 551.42(B) shall use a listed 20-ampere or larger main power-supply assembly.
(C) Thirty-Ampere Main Power-Supply Assembly. Recreational vehicles wired in accordance with 551.42(C) shall use a listed 30-ampere or larger main power-supply assembly.
(D) Fifty-Ampere Power-Supply Assembly. Recreational vehicles wired in accordance with 551.42(D) shall use a listed 50-ampere, 120/240-volt main power-supply assembly.

Finally, someone who actually posts something relevant! That code makes perfect sense and I agree with it completely. However, I'm not discussing installing a second internal electrical system (well, I did mention but but I also didn't want to do it).

I would like to have a portable, external outdoor system that converts 30A to 15A and then an extension cord plugged into 15A runs into the trailer via a dryer vent for running a heater. This involves two entirely different discussions really. One being the running of an extension cord into the trailer while being plugged into an external power outlet, and then about the 30A to 15A converter in itself.

551.45 Distribution Panelboard.
(A) Listed and Appropriately Rated. A listed and appropriately rated distribution panelboard or other equipment specifically listed for this purpose shall be used. The grounded conductor termination bar shall be insulated from the enclosure as provided in 551.54(C). An equipment grounding terminal bar shall be attached inside the metal enclosure of the panelboard.
(B) Location. The distribution panelboard shall be installed in a readily accessible location. Working clearance for the panelboard shall be not less than 600 mm (24 in.) wide and 750 mm (30 in.) deep.

That code seems to just talk about the breaker panel. According to that code I would be following it by using a specifically designed outdoor use power brealer/distribution center in a readily available location, outside. The box is designed for outdoor use for providing breakers/distribution and thats exactly what I wish to do with it. However, that is a completely separate matter than running an extension cord from outdoor to indoor.

As you can see you have missed it by a long shot.

If you are going to fix the RV then do it right or not at all.

No, I haven't missed it. You are talking about doing something entirely different than I am. I'm not adding an electrical system to the trailer. I'm simply running an extension cord into the trailer from an external power source.
 

Cubey

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jwelectric said:
Son neither of us are trying to be rude and both of us are trying as hard as we can to help you. What we can't do is help you if you are not willing to accept what we have to offer.

You are sold on your idea and when someone is as sold on an idea as your are your idea it is hard to get them to stop and see the flaw in their idea.
It is sorta of like telling some that a rose bush has thorns and will hurt them and then they can't see the rose for looking for the thorns.

Leave my house going in any direction and you will pass a RV park within ten minutes. Within a 50 mile radius of my home there are at least 100 RV parks. Yes I have seen a few go up in smoke and one or two explode.

What you are playing with is fire and I hope that you can see this before it is to late.

I am now finished with this thread!

What causes fires most of all with RVs is people overloading their electrical systems by using cheater adapters which converts a higher amperage outlet to a lower amperage electrical system on an RV (ie: a $5 adapter from Wal-Mart that just changes a 30A outlet to a 15A outlet and thats it).

I am trying to be safe. Thats why I'm even posting on this site! if I didn't care I would use a $5 cheater adapter and hope nothing overloaded. That is NOT what I'm doing here! You talk about fires and such. I'm seeking to NOT overload anything and NOT have a fire. Thats why I built a freaken proper 30A to 15A converter! It amazes me that no one can see this!

I'm trying to find the safest, lowest cost way of handling this but all I have gotten from this site is grief about doing it wrong and no actual advice on how to do it right.
 

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Speedy Petey said:
Cubey, I don't know who the hell you are talking to but it certainly is not me. At least not all of it.
You quoted me but are going off on a rant about other things. That was my first reply in this thread and I didn't even quote a code section.

I think you are so wrapped up in getting mad at us because you THINK we are "completely involved in trying to be right" that you don't want to hear anything but what you want to hear.

I realize now why I have stayed away from replying in this thread until now. I think I'll go back to staying away.

You have fun with your project and GOOD LUCK!

No. What I want to hear is stuff relevant to the issue at hand. I want people to not act like I'm idiot and actually try to help me, not order me around. When someone was proven wrong they disregarded their original argument. That is just plain aggravating! I wanted help, not criticism.
 

Frenchie

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Cubey, FYI? I'm not an electrician, but I know the guy you're argueing with. He teaches code for a living. If he says you're misunderstanding that section... you're probably misunderstanding that section. Chill out & ask him nicely, he might take the time to explain it to you, but get down off that high horse, first. Electricians with decades of experience go to him for help with code interpretation, or "where do I find the section that deals with ____". You do not know the code better than him.

I don't think you understand what "unless specifically permitted" means. In code speak, the key word here is "specifically". There would have to be something in 400.7 that said some kinds of wires could be run through dryer vents, and there isn't.

The interpretation you're using of 400.7, would make 400.8 completely redundant. If I can run an extension cord through a wall for any purpose that I'm allowed to use an extension cord in the first place, there would be no possible situation where I couldn't run a cord through a wall, except situation where I can't use a cord in the first place. Think about it. 400.8 would become meaningless.

As a non-electrician who just happens to live in a northern climate, I'm going to point out the really obvious flaw in your plan: every electric heater I've ever seen, comes with a warning that you shouldn't use an extension cord with it. Oops! Time to switch to plan B.

Mike, Petey - some input on Molo's wire-nut thread?
 
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Cubey

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frenchie said:
Cubey, FYI? I'm not an electrician, but I know the guy you're argueing with. He teaches code for a living. If he says you're misunderstanding that section... you're probably misunderstanding that section. Chill out & ask him nicely, he might take the time to explain it to you, but get down off that high horse, first. Electricians with decades of experience go to him for help with code interpretation, or "where do I find the section that deals with ____". You do not know the code better than him.

I don't think you understand what "unless specifically permitted" means. In code speak, the key word here is "specifically". There would have to be something in 400.7 that said some kinds of wires could be run through dryer vents, and there isn't.

The interpretation you're using of 400.7, would make 400.8 completely redundant. If I can run an extension cord through a wall for any purpose that I'm allowed to use an extension cord in the first place, there would be no possible situation where I couldn't run a cord through a wall, except situation where I can't use a cord in the first place. Think about it. 400.8 would become meaningless.

I did ask nicely at first but never got a decent response.


Regarding "unless specifically permitted" the code actually doesn't say ANYTHING about any specific kinds of openings in the wall in which you COULD run a flexible cable through. According to you and him that means you can never do it.

Yet the code pretty blatantly says that under certain circumstances such as with "utilization equipment to facilitate frequent interchange" which includes RVs you can do it. 400.8 says that it's allowed depending on certain conditions outlined in 400.7. Pretty sure that, under any sort of logic, means that for RVs you can run a flexible cable through a wall of an RV or other "utilization equipment to facilitate frequent interchange". Plus the fact that they do it on new RVs made in the USA. They use a special hatch/storage place for the hookup on the RV, but..... the code never says that it has to be a special kind of opening. The special openings on RVs are there just because thats the optimal way to do it. In the case of what I'm doing, a dryer vent is the optimal way to do it. Both are plastic, weather proof openings that allow the flexible cable to enter the RV.

Unless the code contradicts itself that means you can run a flexible cable through the wall of an RV with any safe means needed. Weather proofing the hole in which it runs through is just plain common sense. If they added in every possible thing you must do for wiring, the NEC code would be a do-it-yourself guide to electrical wiring. They assume you know how properly and safely run the cable/wire you are installing so that you don't have water coming in the hole in which the cable is running.

Also, I found a site that lists all of the 2005 NEC codes. There is a section (B) of 400.7 not posted up to now in this thread that points out about section 6 of 400.7(A) that states attachment plugs placed on flexible cable is permitted for plugging into an outlet for power. That would mean you can have a flexible cable to plug into an outlet for power according to 400.7(A). 400.8 seems to state that if 400.7(A) 6 is met then running the cable through a wall is permitted according to 400.8.

Again, no where in 400.7 or 400.8 does it say any certain openings in the wall are allowed. 400.8 states that unless specifically permitted in section 400.7 it is not permitted to run a flexible cable through a wall. However, an RV falls under 400.7 sec 6 and therefore is permitted to have a flexible cable with a plug on it run through the wall. But it does not state that it needs any certain kind of opening in the wall anywhere in the code.

Check out the attached image for the 400.7(B) section. I got that from here:
http://www.nfpa.org/freecodes/free_access_agreement.asp?id=
The format in which the site presents the NEC codes via Java doesn't allow copy and paste so that is why I did a screen shot image instead.


frenchie said:
As a non-electrician who just happens to live in a northern climate, I'm going to point out the really obvious flaw in your plan: every electric heater I've ever seen, comes with a warning that you shouldn't use an extension cord with it. Oops! Time to switch to plan B.

There is no plan B except completely rewiring the trailer or getting a better gas heater. A gas heater is more likely doable than rewiring the trailer I think unless I could figure out an easy way to add in a 30amp inlet. However according to the people in this thread (mis?)quoting the NEC code, I could never do that even though that is how all modern RVs are. Now do you see why I'm getting annoyed in this thread? According to the folks in this thread, it's against NEC code to even do it the proper way since it would require flexible cable to run through the wall. Sorry, but I'm not the one who is wrong here on the subject of flexible cable running through the wall of an RV. The others in the thread have simply stated flat out its against the NEC code and that is incorrect.

I would have to say that the warning on heaters not to run it on an extension cord is due to the fact that most people would grab their light weight 2 wire household extension cord of about 16 gauge. The power cord on the heater I have is 14 gauge. If someone were to plug that into a 16 gauge cord and run it at 1500W, there is your fire hazard with using an extension cord right there. I plan(ned) on using a 25' 12 gauge extension cord so it will be able to carry the load of a 1500W heater without overloading it since the cord on the heater itself is 14 gauge.
 

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Old Dog

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codes...

Sorry guys,I just had to jump in!
Cubey,these guys are not picking on you.They are just trying to explain to you the dangers of using extension cords in this manner.As contractors(I'm a G.C.) we have to abide by the codes set forth in the collective trades.You said you wanted to learn so here goes...To put it simply,most codes are born out of trajedy.The reason the codes are there in the first place is because people(men,women,children) have DIED and/or property lost in a similar situation.the codes are there as a guildline for safe practices.These men posting here are concerned for your wellfare.No one said you couldn't do it.They just said you shouldn't do it!They backed up their statements with the appropiate codes.Now if you want to "cherry pick" a few lines in the codes to justify doing it your way thats your choice.
Just do us a small favor...Google "fires started with extension cords."
There are 994,000 examples for you to learn from!(YOU WILL BE AMAZED HOW MANY ARE STARTED WITH PORTABLE HEATERS!!!!)
 

Bob NH

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If I had to do this on an RV I would mount the subpanel to the RV, inside or outside the RV. Then you could connect one circuit from the subpanel to your existing circuit in some legal and safe manner, and the other circuit from the subanel to a duplex receptacle inside the RV. The second circuit could be mounted right off the subpanel enclosure if it is inside the RV.

The input to the subpanel would come from a 30 Amp male connector mounted on the outside of the RV. I'm sure those are available from RV supply houses. http://www.pplmotorhomes.com/parts/rv-electrical-parts-supplies.htm?source=google&gclid=CJLS7K2n_40CFQ8cHgodaV_8PQ

You can work out the details that fit the RV but the logical place to put the equipment is where the power now comes into the RV.

You then have a legal connection both outside and inside. You have increased your capacity inside the RV by adding the second 15 amp circuit with the duplex outlet and you have maintained your existing circuitry inside the RV.

You will have safely increased the total capacity of the RV circuits to 30 Amps with minimal cost.
 

JWelectric

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Bob I almost agree with you except one thing.

The RV is a listed piece of equipment and to alter the electrical system on the inside would alter the listing of the RV.
There a lot of legal issues that occurs when someone alters the listing of a piece of equipment although it is done often.

The use of portable electrical heaters in these RV vehicles is like playing with matches over an open can of gas.
For weight control the walls and cabinets are made from thin wood or plastic components that are easily ignited.

With the use of portable electric heaters the user is going to do one of two things. Either the heater is placed close to the wall where the heat is close to the kindling or cords are used and are either a trip hazard or get covered by something.

Either way there is a hazard involved that shouldn't be in place and violates the rules outlined in 551 of the NEC as well as the UL listing of the RV unit.

Having had dealings with several RV parks in my area I see some nightmares that the weekend DIYer has concocted. I have personally witnessed 100 amp panels, gas cook tops, gas furnaces, (both ran in copper tubing that was damaged from rubbing while being moved) and cords strung all over the place.

Once reported to the management the RV was expelled from the park as a safety hazard.

Now let's don't forget the people who buy RVs to live in full time. I have seen the charred ceilings from kerosene heaters, scorched walls from cooking appliances and the all too common burnt floors from drop cords. But then again, what do I know about electricity?

We have people that have champagne taste but coke-a-cola pocket books that can't see any danger in what they are doing until it cost someone their life. These are the ones that don't have any business owning a RV at all.

A good example, it works so it must be alright from a full time RV owner.

rvcable.jpg
n
 

Cubey

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Old Dog said:
Just do us a small favor...Google "fires started with extension cords."
There are 994,000 examples for you to learn from!(YOU WILL BE AMAZED HOW MANY ARE STARTED WITH PORTABLE HEATERS!!!!)

I am doing the search right now. They are all fires caused by overloading the extension cord.

http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/102044/

They all say the same thing, the cords were overloaded. They used a cord smaller than the gauge of the appliance.

I appreciate the warning but seriously, in the matter of an extension cord in itself, do you really believe that a 25' 12 gauge extension cord would become overloaded by a 1500W heater with a 14 gauge power cord? I'm looking a real answer here, not just something that agrees with me.

To jwelectric:

I greatly resent the statement about "champagne taste". I'll have you know many people do it because they can't afford the insane rent for an apartment in this country. You can buy a used travel trailer like mine for under $1000, park it at an RV park for under $300 in most cases. Its a cheap way to live. Not everyone can afford the luxuries in this world of the rich. We have to use our brains to get by because we don't have the money to do it for us. Thats why I bought the travel trailer and am working on it myself. I don't have the money to guide me through life with ease. I have to actually learn how to fix things and do it myself. And like I said before, if I didn't care, would I even be posting in this thread at all? And when folks like myself actually try to educate themselves, they just get told "don't do it" with no explanation why.

According to your newest post, the is NO legal/safe solution at all no matter what. It's against NEC code to run in a cord and about "listed piece of equipment". So according to that, the system is what it is and can never be changed. That seems wrong to me. The same would have to go for a mobile home then too since they are pre-manufactured to exact specifications. Changing its electrical system at all would then be illegal according to that statement which somehow doesn't seem right.

Also I wonder if UL listings ever expire with age of a product. A 40 year old RV probably has several things that violate an updated NEC code. Building something in that fashion now would violate the NEC code but do codes work retroactively? Does that mean is dangerous? Probably not. I'm sure many old houses still safe and livable and have things that would not be allowed to be done today as far as wiring. One thing I found interesting is that the NEC code stated that previously multiple electrical systems on an RV was fine but now only a single one is.

In any case I guess I'll return this crap to Lowes & Home depot and just try to make due with the gas heater I have. It lacks low oxygen cutoff so I'll just have to be careful and not leave it on at night.

Of course, I could safely run a small electric heater off of the trailer's electrical system IF i keep it at a low settings (ie: 600W) so it only pulls about 5 amps.

Seems to me, its all about having common sense in what you do. If you overload an extension cord, expect a fire. If you keep a heater too close to stuff, don't be surprised when it ignites. That applies to houses too, not just RVs.

That spliced wiring on the full time RV hookup is just plain bad. I had absolutely no plan to anything remotely like that. Looks to me like they didn't even have the ground wire connected. And that huge knot in the UF(?) wire? Sheesh. I have more common sense than that!
 
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Cubey

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Bob NH said:
If I had to do this on an RV I would mount the subpanel to the RV, inside or outside the RV. Then you could connect one circuit from the subpanel to your existing circuit in some legal and safe manner, and the other circuit from the subanel to a duplex receptacle inside the RV. The second circuit could be mounted right off the subpanel enclosure if it is inside the RV.

The input to the subpanel would come from a 30 Amp male connector mounted on the outside of the RV. I'm sure those are available from RV supply houses. http://www.pplmotorhomes.com/parts/rv-electrical-parts-supplies.htm?source=google&gclid=CJLS7K2n_40CFQ8cHgodaV_8PQ

You can work out the details that fit the RV but the logical place to put the equipment is where the power now comes into the RV.

You then have a legal connection both outside and inside. You have increased your capacity inside the RV by adding the second 15 amp circuit with the duplex outlet and you have maintained your existing circuitry inside the RV.

You will have safely increased the total capacity of the RV circuits to 30 Amps with minimal cost.

Yes, I have considered this but I would either have to have someone professionally cut a hole for the 30A inlet, or mount a box externally on the side of the trailer for the 30A inlet and just drill a hole to run the wire into the wire through.

If not for the newer NEC code saying not to have multiple electrical systems on an RV I could easily add a second system to the back of the trailer and have the inlet sticking out from the trailer. Doing so on the side is probably a bad idea, having something sticking out like that on the street side of the trailer a good several inches. I could mount the inlet on the back and run a very long UF cable to the cabinet with the existing breaker is, and simply add in a second breaker, though that would be a lot of UF cable to have to run. If I knew anyone to do the hole cutting I'd just have them do it. I'd do better to put a new breaker near the back of the trailer and run a long, lesser gauge wire to the existing hookup inlet since the wire would cost less.

Seems to me, I just need to watch **** for a catalytic heater with an oxygen cutoff censor for a low price. Sadly I just missed one for under $150 shipped that normally sells for $230+shipping for the newer version of it.

The catalytic heater I have now is an Colemen one that only has gas cuttoff so if the combustion process stops, it cuts off the gas. No low oxygen cut off sensor. I will simply have to be careful and use common sense with it by leaving a window open while running it and not run it while asleep. A 600W heater run at night should do fine on the trailer's electrical system without overloading it. May not keep me toasty warm but it would certainly keep a complete chill from setting in. A small table top one kept on the dinette table would be safe. No walls would be around it for several feet and it would be off the floor so it can't be tripped on.
 

Cubey

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I have decided to forget about adding any extra electrical stuff to the trailer. Seems to be too much trouble. Even though the coleman catalytic heater I have lacks an oxygen sensor, I do have a battery operated CO detector. If for some reason while I'm in in there and i don't notice the drowsiness and headache (I tend to get that way some days in general) then the CO monitor would go off. Of course that isn't a replacement for common sense in using the heater. It will require at least one window to be open. Also I will only run it while I'm awake and inside the trailer. A small electric heater will be perfetcly safe if kept away far from flammables. Just as safe as in a house. It's all about common sense about safety. If I follow the safety instructions on the heater I should be perfectly fine.

Also, I can safely run an electric heater on the trailer's system at 600 or even 900W in addition to a light (about 0.5A for a 60W bulb) and the RV fridge which uses about 1.5 amps. I could even run it at 1500W (12-13A) if I switch the fridge over to propane and use the battery for lights. If I need to use the microwave or something else large, I will just have to turn the heater off until I'm done using the other appliance. I might end up throwing the breaker at the hookup outside the first few times but after a few times of doing that I'm sure I will get used to it. *lol* I will not enjoy having to go out in the cold to reset the breaker and i will definately remember the next time not to run too much at once, heh.

So I guess that is what I will do. Make due with the 15A system I have as best as possible like I had originally planned to do from the start.

I just figured it would be safe and easy to add in an extra hookup but I see I was greatly mistaken.
 
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