Need Well/Submerisble Pump advice...

Discussion in 'Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog' started by Boonie, Jan 3, 2006.

  1. Boonie

    Boonie New Member

    Messages:
    5
    During the past summer our well/pump started acting up... Started losing it's prime and would take a long time to reach it's cut-out pressure of 60psi. The needle of the gauge would occasionally drop 10 tics or more and once or twice lose it's prime again while recharging, and subsequently stop for several minutes before continuing the same routine until it evevntually would reach 60psi.

    After reading this forum, i decided to rehcarge my WellMate tank to 2psi below cut-in pressure of 40. This helped in one aspect, the pressure would remain in between 60 and 40 psi for a longer period. However, the time to reach 60 psi would vary from 5 secs to 30 minutes or more after reaching the cut-in, and somtimes would drop much below 40 psi before starting upward again.

    Assuming from the beginning that the well might be drying up, my wife and I started to conserve water. The probelm improved somewhat, although we were still in a drought. We've probably had 8 inches of rain since, but the problem still appears somewhat frequently, especially after doing alot of laundry. None of these symptoms had appeared in the previous 3 years that we have owned the property.

    I found the invoice from the original well installlation from 1991, which appears to state that the well is 620 feet deep. The invoice show 620 units sold of 6 1/4" well, 8 GPM @ 7.50 per unit. And the contract shows the price per foot being $7.50, so i assume that is right. As far as the water pipe size, it shows 2 different rolls of 1", one being 200 PSI and the other 160 PSI, adding up to about the assumed depth of well plus the distance to the house. The Submerisble pump info does not show the HP or GPM, but has a make and model which is GOULD 7EH10422, although i can find no reference to this model on the manufacturers website for comparison to a newer model, if replacement is needed.

    The limited info i could find about the pump is that it has a thermal cutoff, which appears to be triggering whenever the recharge time is abnormal, and retries several minutes later, cutting on and off until it eventually reaches the cut-out. It does hold it's pressure after achieving 60 psi.

    Now for my questions:

    1. Assuming the depth of the well is 620 ft, could it be that it takes a longer time for the supply of water to replenish and that the problem is still low water supply in the well?

    2. If i have the pump pulled, would it be more cost effective to replace the pump, considering it is 15 years old, or would it be reasonable to fix the problem and put it back in.

    3. With the above information, could anyone suggest a manufacturer/model of submersible pump as a replacement for these specs?

    4. Am I missing something obvious?


    Thanks in advance, and all you guys are great!!
  2. speedbump

    speedbump Previous member

    Messages:
    4,540
    Location:
    Riverview, Fl.
    I don't sell Goulds, but I believe you have a 3/4hp and the pump is around a 5gpm model for the depth of the well. It is a low yield well and subject to being over pumped in high water use times.

    If you find the pump is not at the bottom of the well, you may want to have the installer put it as close as feasible to the bottom. I would also recommend the Subgard to protect the pump and the Pumptec which will turn the motor off quicker than the thermal overload in the motor does.

    I would definitely replace the pump after 15 years. Your on borrowed time as it is.

    bob...
  3. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    That pump is no longer made and is a 7 gpm 1.0 hp 3-wire pump and it will have a Franklin Electric motor. IMO it's going to die soon and you should replace it before it does and you have no water for a day tor three until someone can get out to replace it.

    The 160 psi PE tubing is probably underground from the well to the house and the 200 psi is down the well. The length of the 200 psi roll will tell you how deep the pump is in the well. And if I'm wrong about the length to the house, the longer roll will be down the well regardless of the rating.

    Any 5-7 gpm pump will work as long as the pump isn't set deeper than the pump's curve allows.

    Gary
    Quality Water Associates
  4. rshackleford

    rshackleford New Member

    Messages:
    284
    Location:
    Eastern Montana (The Bakken)
    I concur. This would be a 7 gpm peak efficiency 1 horse power pump. I would replace it with a goulds 7G10 or a 7GS10. I actually like the g series and it is a bit cheaper. If you are going to hire someone to come and pull the pump you might as well have them replace it if it is that old. There are not a lot of that eh series pump around anymore.

    You may want to have the well pro check the static water level (swl) and the pumping water level (pwl). If the pwl falls below the pump setting you might want to lower the pump. I would recommend replacing the poly pipe with 1 ¼†rigid PVC or galvanized. I would prefer the PVC. I don’t care much for poly pipe, especially at that depth. It is a lot of work to pull that pump on poly pipe

    You may also need to consider some well rehab. Make sure that the pump pro bails the well. If he gets a lot of garbage have him bail it until it cleans up. You may also find an acid treatment helpful. The well man would place the acid in the well and let is sit for twelve hours or so. Then he would bail, pump, or blow the acid out with air. You may have an encrusted intake screen. Check into Nu-Well acid for Johnson Screens. Johnson is a division of Weatherford.

    Did I make more questions, then answers? GOOD. LOL.
  5. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    shack, we use PE tubing to 500'+ here in our rock bores without problems. We also have pump pulling machines that pull up to 50'/minute. Mine sits on/in the casing and I can let go the Up button to stop and inspect any of the 500' at any time. I remove the old pump and install the new pump with them in my machine, it's a great work bench vise. We put the stuff back in the well with the machine too and I just stop it to tape and install guards wherever I want them. Very slick and time and money saving compared to 20' lengths of pipe and a derrick truck. None of us would suggest using galvanized pipe. And I can wheel my machine through a house doorway opening if needed and it can not tear up the lawn and posies. It's a Pul-A-Pump out of NJ. IMO there are none better.

    Gary
    Quality Water Associates
  6. rshackleford

    rshackleford New Member

    Messages:
    284
    Location:
    Eastern Montana (The Bakken)
    We have been looking for a pump puller like that. Does it keep the pipe centered in the hole or does the wire drag on the side of the casing. We will always have a derrick truck, I wonder if they make one for hydraulics. There are times here where we even use black steel pipe. Rigid PVC is only good for so deep and then you must go to steel. We have some water that will degrade galvanized and not black.

    I still would rather have rigid PVC then poly pipe on a deep one like this.
  7. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    It has two about 20" rubberized tracks that squeeze everything but let guards torque arrestors etc. right through. There are 6 tuff rubber straps to keep the tracks together but allowing them to open some. It centers on the hole because the thing sits on the casing with a casing adapter down the casing about 6" and the adapter has to be for the diameter of the casing. I have 2 casing adapters; one for 5 5/8" and one for 6" casings. I've never seen a residential well around here of any other size.

    Every once in a while the cable will want to get out of the tracks and you just stop, reverse a foot or so and guide it back in as you start pulling again. The tracks are about 6-7" wide with a drop pipe and two other grooves in them. Like they are moulded halves.

    Here we have a real problem if you we need a derrick truck, our wells aren't deep enough to need one in most cases.

    Gary
    Quality Water Associates
  8. rshackleford

    rshackleford New Member

    Messages:
    284
    Location:
    Eastern Montana (The Bakken)
    how much are there?
  9. Boonie

    Boonie New Member

    Messages:
    5
    Thanks!!

    Although I like to do things myself, I don't think I'll be able to pull this one off, or err... up.

    I'm starting to believe that the pump has indeed gone bad, probably due to the fact the the tank had lost it's charge for i don't know how long, pump was cycling like every minute, during water use, for a long time. Now it seems to shut off every 3 seconds due to thermal protection.

    I realize this is probably not the smartest thing to do, but i decided to power the pump manualy at 2 sec intervals to see if the water supply would remain constant and it certainly does, and will reach cutout alot faster that way. Also the water is crystal clear.

    I suppose it could be an electrical issue, but i don't know where to start with that, seems it stays around the 220 voltage, altought the pump itself has seemingly erratic ohm readings, while inactive, which jump all over the place, but really don't have a clue about what they should read.

    I live in the N.C. mountains inhabited by the ultra wealthy and the other half, I include myself in the other half. So, i went to the hardware store to get the skinny on the contractors, hoping to find one that won't gouge me. The owner gave me one name, based on the depth of the well. I called and spoke with secretary, and am waiting on a callback.

    You guys are very informative, and i really appreciate it. Arming myself with knowledge seems to be best way to not get overcharged, but i realize that this has to be done and will not be done cheaply. Seems like one of the Pumptec devices will be a must. Guess I'll have to take the word of the contractor on what kind of pipe to use, if it needs to be replaced, as i guess he will be the one that pulls it the next time too, if needed. Sure hope he as one of those niftty machines.

    I went out to the well, which is incased in a concrete casing and has large concrete lid, the top of the actual well casing had a plate that said Depth/620 ft. Has a 6 inch metal plate on the top with four bolts on it, so i decided to stop my investigating there. Although i did listen through a couple of pump cycles and heard some kind of air whooshing sounds... i dunno :confused:

    Was researching the Gould G and GS series pumps, although i could only find information on the GS series. I have to admit I'm a little confused by the graphs. If i could be directed to a specific model that would be more than adequate for the 620 feet at 7GPM, i would be eternally grateful. I notice they come in many HP in the same model. I don't mind buying from the contractor, but I would like to know what a reasonable price would be, as well as the quality of the pump.

    Thanks again, and I love more questions :)
  10. rshackleford

    rshackleford New Member

    Messages:
    284
    Location:
    Eastern Montana (The Bakken)
    The well contractor should try to establish a pumping water level and a static water level.

    Make sure the well contractor chlorinates the well when he is done. He should also bail the well for a bit. On an older well like this bailing is a good idea to break some odd junk and garbage loose. You know, clean the well out a bit. I would also recommend super chlorination a couple times a year. By the sounds of it you have not been doing this.

    The well depth is important, but the pumping water level and the static water level are more important. Maybe I missed something, but I all I can recommend is based on the pump you already have down the hole. A matching pump would be a 7GS10 or a 7G10. The 7G10 list price is $829 and the GS list price is $955. A pump man worth his salt will sell enough pumps to get a good discount from the wholesaler. I would expect to get a 10-35% discount off of list. I would sell it to you at about a 25-30% discount.

    Here is a link with the gs and g series info. When looking at the graphs the vertical axis is the pressure the pump will develop and the horizontal is the flow rate. If you want seven gpm you will get 400’ of pressure with the 7GS10 pump. Use a conversion factor of 2.3 ft/1psi you would have a pressure of 174 psi at the pump discharge. If the water draws down to 300 feet when pumping (pumping water level) that leaves you with 100 feet of head at the ground surface. The total head in feet minus the lift elevation to get it to surface. This means you would have about 40 psi at the surface, at 7 gpm, at 300’ drawdown with this pump. This pressure will change if the pumping water level is different.

    goulds
  11. Boonie

    Boonie New Member

    Messages:
    5
    great!

    thanks, so much

    I really appreciate the education. And certainly plan on having all suggested measures performed. I guess my confusion about the pump was the different motor sizes that i saw listed, but i think i understand now.

    If i understand correctly, the actual water level in the well affects the output pressure to the end point (house). So, without assuming too much, if the static water level is too low, then the pump may not be capable of reaching the cut-out of 60 psi without overheating?

    Trying to picture in my mind how these pumps are pulled up, with the talk about the machinery and all. I'm imagining a 600 ft long pipe reaching to the sky :p

    thanks again
  12. rshackleford

    rshackleford New Member

    Messages:
    284
    Location:
    Eastern Montana (The Bakken)
    It all lies down on the ground. The poly pipe is pretty flexible.

    You are correct about the pump curve info. Notice that there are many curves on one graph. This does represent the added capacity of added hp.

    Your house system is dynamic, the flow changes. If the water level is too low it might not reach cut off at 7 gpm. However, when all the valves are off it should reach shutoff at zero flow (0 gpm). This is represented at the far left of the curve. Notice how the pressure rises as the flow decreases.

    A pump will not overheat if the bearings are good and it has water flowing past it. A sub pump could run at 7 gpm indefinitely as long as it has good cooling flow.

    Your well contractor should also have a little gauge type deal to test the bearing tolerance of a motor. It might be fun to have him put it on the old motor to see how out of tolerance it is.

    I forgot something. Check out your wire sizes. Franklin is pretty strict about this. You should have either #10 or #8 AWG wire. Check it out.
  13. Boonie

    Boonie New Member

    Messages:
    5
    wire

    Almost headed out to lift that lid off again... then i remembered the invoice. It shows 475 feet 10/2 pump cable and 191 feet 10/2 UF cable. This almost mirrors the pipe, which is 400 feet of the 200 PSI and 191 of the 160 PSI. I also noticed they used the pump cable to run from the breaker box to the Pressure switch using an additonal red wire for the ground, so i guess that makes up for the difference.

    I'm assuming that it is 10 gauge wire, not sure what the 2 in the 10/2 means.

    hmm...Does this mean that the pump is 400 feet down?

    doh! of course it does... just like Gary said.
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2006
  14. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,152
    Location:
    New England
    THe number after the / is the number of insulated conductors (and does not necessarily include a ground wire).
  15. Boonie

    Boonie New Member

    Messages:
    5
    followup

    Guys came out today and replaced the pump, serviced the well and a few spots of wire. They had one of those little machines that pulls up the pump. Were here and gone in 2 hours. Didn't have the G or GS series with them but said it was it was a quality Goulds pump. All is well. Gonna mail me the bill, so i'll post the pump model and total cost later.

    Thanks for all the advice.

    Oh, the static water level was at 60 feet :)


    Update:
    -------------------------------------------------------------------
    Put in Goulds 7LS10422 $842.00
    Labor 2 men $70 per hr. $157.50
    5 year pump warranty $30.00
    Pipe Band & Insrt Adptr. $6.36

    Total $1034.88
    -------------------------------------------------------------------
    Guys are out of Boone, NC and I would recommend them. They will travel 50 miles from Boone.

    I guess they are still using the older goulds pumps, haven't seen any data on them, I'll assume they are similar to the GS series.
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2006
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