Need well advice

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BillB48

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I have a 4" pvc well casing. When the well was being drilled 32 years ago the casing stuck at about 30' and the driller had to "sleeve" inside the casing with 2" pvc. This worked fine for years but now the water table has been consistently dropping, and the submersible pump (a 1 hp 32 year old Starite VIP) is sucking air and gurgling about a fourth of the time when running after being dropped to within about 3" of the 2" casing. Any thoughts short of a new well. The bottom of the 2" casing is at 90', great water, plenty of it. It is all sand until the driller hit limerock close to the 90' depth. (I'm in north Florida).
Does anybody make a submersible pump that would fit inside the 2" casing? Also I'm getting ready to replace the Sta-Rite with a 1 hp Jacuzzi "Hurricane" , I bought years ago to have a replacement ready. It has a Franklin motor, 3-wire (plus a ground). Will any control box work with that pump or does it have to be specific to that brand. The old box is a goner.
Thanks for any help.
 

Valveman

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Texas Wellman does a lot of jet pumps. Maybe he can tell you if it is possible to put a packer down that 2" so you can use a deep well jet pump. But I don't know of anyway to get a sub down there.
 

Reach4

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You could use a 2-pipe deep jet assembly with the jet just above the 2 inch casing. The tail pipe could extend into the 2 inch, and let you keep sucking water from another 20 to 25 ft deeper.
nd.06.f.tailpipe.jpg
http://www.nationaldriller.com/articles/86889-how-to-use-tail-pipe-on-deep-well-jet-pumps

You don't say if you have a freezing problem, but there are pitless adapters available for 2 pipes.
 

BillB48

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No freezing problems. Thanks for the info. I'll try to access the article. It seems like I remember researching this years ago and there were 2" pumps for low voltage, post apocalypse applications.
 

Reach4

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This is a non-standard idea in my sketch. It is not fleshed out, but I throw it out for critique as a concept. The idea is that the 2.6 inch diameter Grundfos SQ submersible pump sits in a chamber. The static water level is high enough at some point to fill the chamber (does it need an air release valve at the top???

Anyway, the once the water is in, the water gets replenished by sucking through the tailpipe that is inserted into your 2 inch casing. This allows the water level to drop during pumping. The checkvalve is important to keep water in the chamber, though the pump should be able to pump the odd bit of air with the water on occasion.

Your existing pump would be too wide allow an extra sleeve chamber.
I'll try to access the article.
I don't think you need the article. The picture pretty much tells the story. Many people use deep jet pumps. It is a proven technology. They are not as quiet or efficient or maintenance-free as submersibles, but you have a special situation that could benefit from a long tail pipe that can reach deep into your 2-inch casing for more water.
 

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BillB48

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Thanks for all the info. Starting to educate myself about the deep well jet pumps. Never knew that was an alternative. What about the vertical deep well jets, same principle? Any recommendations on pumps ? I'm concerned about value-price but don't necessarily want to go el-cheapo. I've got a galvanized tank with float and water draw down-air recharge valve? at top of drop pipe. I guess this wouldn't work with the jet pump, because of losing prime.
 

BillB48

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Thanks for all the info. Starting to educate myself about the deep well jet pumps. Never knew that was an alternative. What about the vertical deep well jets, same principle? Any recommendations on pumps ? I'm concerned about value-price but don't necessarily want to go el-cheapo. I've got a galvanized tank with float and water draw down-air recharge valve? at top of drop pipe. I guess this wouldn't work with the jet pump, because of losing prime.
 

BillB48

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Reach 4, thanks for the drawing and info on the Grundfos SQ, missed it at first. I'm worried about the water level continuing to drop eventually leaving the pump permanently high and dry. I imagine there's only a foot or so of water above the 2" casing right now. A couple good wet hurricanes would solve my problems.
 

Texas Wellman

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Probably cannot use a packer jet if the 2" casing doesn't come all the way to the surface. A packer jet system is under pressure at all times. You could maybe use the tailpipe set-up where the twinline jet sits right at the transition zone and the dip leg goes down into the 2" but it will only lift from about 30' under the jet. As the water level drops the pump will start to drop in flow (the flow will equalize). If the level doesn't drop then you do not lose any flow. A vertical jet pump is a good choice if you can mount the pump directly to the well (via a casing adapter) but a multi-stage horizontal pump would probably be your best bet. Look for a Goulds HSJ. I believe you may be able to hang the twinline jet on poly pipe but I'm not 100% sure as one line will have pressure and one will be under vacuum.
 

Texas Wellman

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BTW I see a lot of those old Sta Rite VIP III's even though they quit making them in the ?80's. Ours lasted 30 years as well. Proves that other companies knew how to make a submersible motor years ago.
 

BillB48

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Is the vertical pump more efficient? Is the only difference in where it mounts? It sounds like the twinline jet may be my best choice. I assume that the assembly where the two pipes join to the drop pipe (jet ejector?) doesn't have to be submerged as long as the drop pipe is in the water. What size should the drop pipe be where the fittings and footvalve would fit in the 2" casing. I would have plenty of water even a few feet below the top of the 2" casing, is there any advantage to extending the drop pipe further? Thanks for all the help. 30 years ago I would have spent days driving around trying to pump free information out of well drillers and pump salesman, and learned half of what I've learned here in a few hours. I'm searching for the "Well pumps for dummies" book.
 

Reach4

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A 2-inch casing has 1/4 as much water per foot as a 4-inch casing.

How long is the 2-inch casing? The downside of the tail pipe being longer is that you could suck up debris that has sunk to the bottom of the casing. The upside of longer is that you won't run out of water as readily, and you won't suck air into the pipe.

There is no point to going more than 36 feet for the tail, but 32 ft is almost as good as 36 ft. You would like to set the intake 20 ft above the bottom of the well to avoid sucking sand etc, but usually 10 feet would be enough.
 
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BillB48

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About 60'. The 2" casing goes from about 30' below the top of the 4" casing at ground level (there's a rubber gasket sealing it to the 4" at the 30' depth) to the bottom of the well at about 90'. As close as I can figure the present water level is about 2' above the top of the 2" casing. I'm in an aquifer recharge area, there is only sand until you hit the Floridan Aquifer (limestone). No intermediate clay layer or hardpan. I've never pumped a grain of sand or debris. I think the present water level is just above the intake of the submersible, and the submersible is about as low as I can drop it. It pumps air intermittently, maybe 2-3 seconds every 10 or 15 seconds.
 

Texas Wellman

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You really need to pull the pump and measure the real water level before you go on a tangent with a jet pump etc. The pump may just be giving out. A submersible pump will not "pump" air.
 

Reach4

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So having your check valve or foot valve 35' or a bit more below the jet assembly would be ideal.
A foot valve is a check valve with a screen/strainer on it. A check valve would normally have threads on both ends. A foot valve on the bottom of your tail pipe would be the common thing to use, but I think you could use either. I don't know what would be most reliable for you.
 

BillB48

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I say it's pumping air, it's really just a change in the sound of the pump running. Maybe the drain down valve opening after pressure drop. (I've got the well seal off). Good idea about pulling the pump. I'm going to put the new Jacuzzi submersible on after documenting all the water and casing depths. Best case scenario it fixes the problem, worst case scenario I go the jet pump route and have the submersible as a alternative if the water table comes back up. Thanks for all the expert help.
 

Reach4

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A clamp-on ammeter should show a drop in current when the pump runs out of water. You can get a device that can detect the change in current and shut the pump down for a selectable interval.
 

Justwater

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just residential use? the 2 pipe jet and tailpipe setup should work, when it levels off it will just pump as much water as the well makes. no deeper than you are pulling water from, i'd personally use a 2-pipe 4" well seal with single stage goulds either j5 (1/2hp) or j10 (1hp) horizontal pump sitting on a block right by the well.

but before i went that route, i would be sure a 1/2hp submersible wouldn't work. i wouldn't install another 1hp, obviously it over pumps the well. if a 1hp (assuming 18-20gpm) sub catches air and gargles *every 10-15 seconds* i would think a 1/2hp 10-12gpm pump should be ok. and can likely still use your tank setup. unless you have unusually high water demands, a 1/2hp is plenty of pump.
 
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