Need some peace of mind

Discussion in 'Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog' started by Splatman, Dec 15, 2008.

  1. Splatman

    Splatman New Member

    Messages:
    8
    Need some peace of mind - Pump cycling

    Ok, I just need someone to hopefully put my mind at ease.

    I just had a new well pump, piping, and tank installed and have a few questions.

    The pump company installed a CSV with a 40-60PSI pressure switch and attached a 20 gallon Well-rite WR60 tank. They explained to me that it was the equiv. of a 42 gal galvanized tank and that since I had a CSV installed it would be plenty for my needs.

    Question:

    Is it normal for the pump to kick on every 1Min 30seconds during a shower? It only takes about 45 seconds to catch up and shut off again.

    Does my CSV need to be adjusted?

    When they installed it they were running the spigot attached to the well to show me that the CSV kept the pump running at about 55PSI until the spigot was closed.

    I just need some peace of mind. I'm an electrical engineer and worry about electronic devices and "wear and tear". :)

    Thank you for the information...

    John
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2008
  2. speedbump

    speedbump Previous member

    Messages:
    4,540
    Location:
    Riverview, Fl.
    The CSV is not electronic or even electrical.

    Apparently the CSV or the Pressure Switch weren't set right. The pump should not cycle while your using the shower. Unless of coarse your shower produces less than 1 gpm. That would be a pretty sorry shower if it did.

    You didn't mention what CSV you have, that would help a little if we knew that.

    bob...
  3. Splatman

    Splatman New Member

    Messages:
    8
    Thanks for the reply.

    I think I have a CSV1V, it's the same color (black case with brass screw on top).

    I know it's not electronic, I was referring to the pump being the electronic device I was worried about... :)

    After installation and the well spigot on, it kept the pump running so that the pressure was maintained at 55PSI. Could it be set to high or low for shower use?

    Is it ok for a pump to cycle every 1.5 minutes during a shower?

    Will it significantly shorten the pump life?

    It's a 1HP pump that was installed, but I'm not sure of the specifics.
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2008
  4. speedbump

    speedbump Previous member

    Messages:
    4,540
    Location:
    Riverview, Fl.
    Probably the CSV1Z. You can either turn the bolt on the CSV to lower the pressure setting or turn up the Pressure Switch to get the proper setting.

    bob...
  5. Splatman

    Splatman New Member

    Messages:
    8
    Again, thanks for the fast response.

    The pressure switch is set at 40-60 and has been verified. So you think I may need to lower the CVS value to allow it to function at the shower rate? Also, if this is the case, could you please explain the proper way to adjust and test?

    Thank you again.
  6. speedbump

    speedbump Previous member

    Messages:
    4,540
    Location:
    Riverview, Fl.
    Valveman is the expert, but the way I would do it is to turn on a faucet, like the kitchen. While it's running, and the pump is on, turn the bolt counter clockwise to lower the pressure closer to the 50 psi mark. The closer it gets to 60 while your using a little bit of water, the easier it is for it to let the pump shut off. Once you get it there, that should be it for good.

    bob...
  7. Splatman

    Splatman New Member

    Messages:
    8
    Thank you Bob, I really appreciate it. I'll report back after I adjust it.
  8. Splatman

    Splatman New Member

    Messages:
    8
    Ok, before I make any adjustments can we discuss the following...

    1.) Is it bad that the pump runs every 1.5 minutes when showering? Would it be better to run constantly when showing?

    2.) Is a 20 gallon Well-Rite tank sufficient for my home?

    Thanks,

    Jay
  9. W.O.P Jeff

    W.O.P Jeff Junior Member

    Messages:
    12
    Location:
    Ottawa, Ontario
    That sounds about right for the time it would take to turn on while showering.

    If your showerhead produces say 8GPM on a WR60 it will take about 1.5minutes for it to turn on and fill back up

    How deep is the well and what is the pump you have down the well?

    A WR60 is pretty standard for most households. It all depends on how many people are living and what the water usage will be.

    Obviously the bigger the better but there comes a point when bigger wont be any better for your pump.

    You want the pump to run for about a minute or longer when it turns on
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2008
  10. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,426
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    Sorry, been under the weather.

    #1 It is always better if the pump does not cycle. Not only is it better for the pump but, your shower pressure will remain constant. While you are running the shower, turn the adjustment on the CSV counter clockwise until the pressure is steady at about 55 PSI.

    #2 A 20 gallon tank holds about 5 gallons of water. When you get the CSV adjusted so the pump does not cycle, that tank is actually larger than you really need.
  11. W.O.P Jeff

    W.O.P Jeff Junior Member

    Messages:
    12
    Location:
    Ottawa, Ontario
    Sorry.. What is a CSV? Not familiar w/ that term :-/
  12. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,426
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    Welcome to the forum WOP Jeff!
    We must have been posting at the same time. You can search this forum for CSV or Cycle Stop Valves and read many threads on the subject. Or you can see more at www.cyclestopvalves.com.

    In the 40 years I have been in the pump and well business, I also use to say the larger the tank the better. However, I started using variable speed pumps with small tanks about 20 years ago. I soon discovered many problems with the Variable Speed Pumps, VFD's, or constant pressure pumps, as they are sometimes called. For the last 15 years, I have been replacing big pressure tanks and VFD systems with Cycle Stop Valves and small tanks. There are many benefits to the CSV system, many people in the pump industry have been moving in this direction for years. Pressure tank only systems are no longer the preferred method for pump control for many reasons. The following is an email and picture that I recently received from an individual who has tried big tanks, VFD's, and has now advanced to a Cycle Stop Valve controlled system. Let me know anytime you have questions.
    Thanks
    Cary


    Cary,

    I have had a Grundfos CU301 w/a 15SQE-250 running my combined domestic
    and GWHP system for the last 11 months. Recently, I started getting
    the "VOLTAGE ALARM" coupled w/the "NO CONTACT WITH PUMP" LEDs lighting
    up! Pump still locks in at the 40PSI, but surges at startup and stops
    at 90PSI. Very unstable.

    Took your advice as I have seen posted on this and several other well
    pump related sites. I originally did not side w/the CSV camp and went
    w/the VFD camp as seen above. After reviewing many of your well argued
    and calculated discussions on these two systems, I decided to purchase
    the CSVZ1 and a standard pressure switch (30/50) w/auto-start-stop
    switch.

    I have attached several pix showing my CSV replacement so you can see
    my setup. Also, I attached a diagram of my domestic & GWHP well
    system. It is a Standing Column Well (SCW) that recycles back to the
    source well and uses the domestic water usage to maintain the well's
    thermal dynamics (~54-60 degrees).

    I really like the "simplicity" of the CSV as opposed to the "complex
    technical & faulty" VFD setups!

    Thanks,
    Greg

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Dec 15, 2008
  13. masterpumpman

    masterpumpman New Member

    Messages:
    729
    Location:
    Virginia Beach, VA
    Csv

    A properly installed CSV will allow your pump to run constantly and maintain a constant pressure while you are using more than about 2 gpm. It shouldn't be cycling at all while using more than 2 gpm.

    I suggest that you go to www.cyclestopvalves.com. It's a wealth of information on CSV's and will explain how it works.

    While I was answering, I see that the expert on CSV's "Valveman" has answered your questions.
  14. Splatman

    Splatman New Member

    Messages:
    8
    THANK YOU ALL!! I feel so much better about my setup now. I had read so much information over the last few days about "Bigger is better" and can now understand how the opposite is probably just as good. Less cycles = longer pump life. I'm an electrical engineer by trade and understand electronics and how they "break-down" over time and use.

    I was mostly concerned with the size tank I had. I drove around my neighborhood and peeked at what my neighbors had...wow, so many different sizes and shapes. I thought that I might have been taken advantage of from the well/pump people...they have a good reputation in the area, but something just felt strange. They explained the CSV and like I mentioned it worked great when they were showing me at the spigot on the well. It held steady at 55PSI and then shut off when we closed the spigot. Then I noticed the cycling while my wife was in the shower. She doesn't take really long showers, but I did notice the pump kicking on and off at 1.5 minute intervals. I wouldn't have cared really, but since we had a larger tank before our well/pump "remake" I took notice to the more frequent cycles.

    So, now, after reading your information as well as the attached email, I feel SOOOOooooo much better.

    Thank you ALL!!! I will go out and adjust my CSV right now. I'll report back shortly.

    Thank you again.

    Jay
  15. Splatman

    Splatman New Member

    Messages:
    8
    Success! I think I may need to tweak it a bit over the next day or two, but after "tightening" the CSV a bit the pump stayed on as the shower ran and held at about 55PSI. I turned the shower off and did the same thing with the spigot at the well and noticed that with it wide open, the pump could only keep the pressure around 50PSI. I'm assuming that this is fine since the hose is right next to the pump and it probably can't keep up as much as it does through the water softener, and the house.

    Thanks again everyone.

    Jay
  16. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,426
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    The more water you are using, the less pressure your pump can produce. That particular CSV also maintains a little less pressure as the flow increases. Wide open flow and 50 PSI, or low flow at 55 PSI sounds right. The test is that the pump should never build to 60 and cycle off as long as you are using more than 1 GPM.
  17. Splatman

    Splatman New Member

    Messages:
    8
    Got it. Thanks again valveman. I appreciate your follow up with this.
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