Need opinions on supply lines

Discussion in 'Plumbing Forum, Professional & DIY Advice' started by mike08201, Feb 11, 2007.

  1. mike08201

    mike08201 New Member

    Messages:
    12
    Location:
    Absecon, NJ
    New addition going up over a crawl space. Today I plan on running some supply lines for the tub and sinks, plus if i am lucky some supply lines for heat.

    I'm afraid of them freezing, I know I froze my <beep> off running the DWV under there, took 3 jackets to stay warm enough to keep going yesterday. The rest of the house is a full basement and i don't have this issue since the trunk line for the radiators keeps it comfortable down there. (it runs the whole perimeter of the basement)

    Should I count on the new radiator supply lines in the crawl space to have the same effect as the basement, keeping it warm enough so no pipes freeze? I'm also contemplating putting the pipes up against the subfloor, so when I run the R-30 insulation in the crawl space they will be trapped on the heated side of the insulation.

    Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

    P.S. I want to say thanks to the members of this forum, I'm glad i found this on the WWW. You folks already helped me out on the main horizontal waste line just reading past posts. The fella at home creepo said it would be OK for me to use sanitary tees in the 4" line where my waste lines drop in (against my better judgment mind you) since he didn't stock the Wye's I requested. I talked to a plumber at the supply store (different one this time LOL) and he agreed with the posts so I spent yesterday, me and my overweight belly in an 18" crawl space UGH! riping out the incorrect work and putting in the Wye's. I'm much more comfortable with that setup (which is what I wanted in the first place ARghhh) Point being I would have failed inspection and encountered delays if it weren't for the folks here putting that in a previous post. Your sharing of knowledge is appreciated by this Jersey boy.
  2. Cass

    Cass Plumber

    Messages:
    5,980
    Location:
    Ohio
    If you can bring a thermometer down and see what the temp is. 38, 39 degrees can feel real cold but won't freeze.

    The big thing is being sure there are no places / holes that are letting a draft in and that the water lines are not close / in any outside wall.

    Even very small holes can let is enough cold to freeze pipes. There should be 0 air inflitration.
  3. mike08201

    mike08201 New Member

    Messages:
    12
    Location:
    Absecon, NJ
    the access panel is an insulated panel (metal with 1" polystyrene LOL) and I already closed all the foundation vents. The block is all new work so it should be tight.

    Of course while I was in there the access panel was off so the wind whipped right in, but my bare hands weren't freezing but the ground was cold(can you guess I can't find a thermometer)

    There are 2 fixtures (kitchen sink and laundry) against an outside wall

    Wait, I'm going to get my outdoor thermometer and throw it under there for a 1/2 hour
  4. Cass

    Cass Plumber

    Messages:
    5,980
    Location:
    Ohio
    Insulating a wall up to where the waterlines are can help. Also insulating the block will help keep in ground heat.

    I have been in a few crawl spaces where the owner insulated the block and any part of the band that was accessible and it is amazing how much warmer the crawl space is when that is done.

    Most newer homes with crawl spaces have the block / poured walls and band insulated.

    Even in homes with full basement many have insulated walls at least part way down.
  5. mike08201

    mike08201 New Member

    Messages:
    12
    Location:
    Absecon, NJ
    Doesn't look promising. Everything has been closed off for an hour now, heat wafting in from basement, and crawl space temp is 15 degrees. Now, the radiator lines haven't been run yet, so it is a wild card to know how they will contribute to a better temp. in there.

    Another thought crossed my mind. Apart from joining little 16" copper pieces everytime a cross a joist (if I run it on top of the insulation under the subfloor), how good is the pipe wrap insulation in keeping the pipes from freezing?
  6. Numerous things to consider

    One is that you made glue connections under the recommended 40 degrees that is required by the mfg.

    Get some heat in there as those glue joints are compromised using that product at that temp. If you had the glue and pipe/fittings at room temperature before using them that helps...but the cure time was affected.

    In new construction years ago we'd go against the rules and do the above....only to have leaks in some of our glue joints because the glue wouldn't spread correctly. (Came up with a neat invention to clamp onto a torpedo heater to keep the glue/cleaner warm though :p)


    As recommended, definitely insulate the perimeter walls. They make a foil-faced insulating product that has a R-13 rating, and is designed to skirt concrete walls. It's 4' tall and 15' runs so cut it down and use the two lengths to go around.

    IF you can control air movement, follow the advice of a licensed electrician and litter the underside of those joists with light fixtures. The more the better depending on the square footage. I'm assuming that you will be insulating between the joist spaces since living space is above. Mount the light fixtures on the edges.

    This way you can always see inside the crawl space, have the opportunity to "flip a switch" when the temperature goes down without having to remember to divert heat with a furnace ductwork.

    Just the heat created by a regular lightbulb, with no air movement whatsoever can keep pipes/drains from freezing.

    In my opinion I trust the idea above before heat tapes. I'm sure an electrician can figure out how to get the lights to trigger on by means of a thermostatic switch.

    I know of 1 customer of mine that has this above scenario and it works good for him.
  7. mike08201

    mike08201 New Member

    Messages:
    12
    Location:
    Absecon, NJ
    Thanks rugged. I did help the glue along by keeping next to my light bulb while I worked. Plus the joints will have a month or better before water hits them so they have time to cure completely. As of right now you can't even twist the joints so something must've gone right.
    Plus I put so much glue in there it seeped out in nearly every connection.
  8. kordts

    kordts In the Trades

    Messages:
    551
    Location:
    exurban Chicago
    Thermo-cube

    You can plug a thermo-cube into an outlet, then plug a reflector lamp with a heat bulb in it. When the temp drops below 35, the thermo-cube lets current thru to the lamp. When it gets to 45, the thermo-cube shuts down.
  9. mike08201

    mike08201 New Member

    Messages:
    12
    Location:
    Absecon, NJ
    I appreciate all the suggestions. I just came up from the basement and I decided to run under the R-30 floor insulation. You can't get a better insulator than that, and there are no elaborate setups.

    If something needs servicing, you wouldn't want to be me! LOL But most days folks don't.

    I'm predicting to be hit by a car tomorrow since I just finished the vent lines. When I tell you I thought I had to run to the store for 2' of pipe, I was sighing. Then I began assembly, I had EXACTLY the right amount of pipe, EXACTLY, not even a 1/4" to spare, AND the right fittings, no more no less. This is after running the DWV for a 800 sq ft addition. I never get that lucky! LOL
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