Need Opinions on Grout Water Stains Outside of Curbless Shower

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thingreen

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New to the forum, hoping to get some helpful feedback and opinions on my issue. Sorry if this is a little long....

Bottomline: Have had a finished curbless shower with 60" linear drain for a couple of months now. Have max of two 2.5 gpm shower heads going at once and the drain seems to handle it fine. There's not really any accumulation of water at our feet; I've even taken off the drain grill during the shower to see how far up the drain channel the water is filling up and it's only about 1/3 the way up. I can hear a nice gurgling flow down the drain through the p-trap. Now the issue is, I recently started noticing some darker stains on the lighter grout outside of the shower in front of the glass door which seem to be lingering now as I pay more attention to them. I'm concerned that water is maybe getting out under the tile/grout at the entry and pooling? There are only a few spots with this darkening at this point, not the entire length of a grout line. We have 12"x24" porcelain tiles on the floor as well as walls.

Background: Had some remodeling work completed by a GC over last few months. In short, turned a bedroom into a master bathroom + walk-in closet to create a master suite. The bathroom plumbing was therefore brand new. Our home is a single story concrete slab construction.

Curbless w/ Linear drain: Being a first timer at this, we made changes in plans as we went along, one of which was to make our large 8' x 4' shower be curbless with a linear drain. Due to not planning far enough ahead for this (and admittedly, the GC was not experienced with this either), the shower floor was not lowered early on. Being in CA, it was hot mopped (sloped) and drain positioned centered at the entry along the long 8' wall. Everything was hot mopped including the bench at one end of the 8' length and it leak checked ok. So I did some research and decided to go with a LUXE 60" drain because it was the longest off the shelf and fit in the space we had. It goes across the glass door entry with one end butted up against the bench. The other end stops about 1' short of the wall. I knew that there would be extra tile area that would need to be sloped from this corner towards the drain to account for the drain not going the entire length of the shower. Oh and it's about 3" offset from the entry with the tile backsloped towards the drain.

Tile: I thought the tiler was pretty skilled IMO. Because we didn't drop the shower floor, he had to build up (float?) the entire bathroom floor outside with concrete before tiling to match the shower floor height with drain. He sloped the shower floor 1/4" towards the drain which seems to be working fine, i.e. the water line stays within the glass door envelop, with some accumulation on the one tile that's backsloped towards the drain.

I've attached a photo to show the overall layout. I'm not sure how to post multiple photos?

Questions:

1) What is the most likely source of water causing the dark spots? The dark spots are in front of the glass door as well as off to the half wall side where the towel bar is. This makes me worried that water is wicking through under the tile? I don't think the hot mop is leaking, as the inside was completely covered at least 10-12" up the walls and the entire bench.

2) If there is water getting out, what can I do to figure out where it's coming from and how bad it is? Is the telltale sign that the dark spots aren't disappearing quickly that there is water sitting under that spot?

3) How is a capillary break installed? What should have been done?

I'm really trying to make a proactive move to avoid long term damage if there's trouble brewing. But I also need a practical solution because I have budget as well as domestic constraints (newborn baby).

Thanks!
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thingreen

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John,

Thanks for taking initiative to find my other post with additional info. No, when I saw the outer darker grout stains, I never thought caulking was the answer. My stress level started going up. Last night I was in the process of following up here but got busy (we have a 2 week old newborn). I'm trying to collect all the good advice and opinions from you experts so I can educate myself before I go back to my GC to discuss a plan that will have the highest chance for success. Also, so that I'm armed with knowledge in case I need to convince him there's a real problem.

Answers to your questions:
1) The 1st photo shows the hot mop. I believe it's 3 (?) layers of roofing material with the tar stuff. There's no rubber material that I'm aware of, but I wasn't there during the actual process. I can try to get details from my GC who subbed it out to a hot mop specialist.
2) I don't know what was done with that hot mop flap by the tiler. My guess is it was not lifted up vertically and the corners sealed. The tiler said he left the vertical piece in place but I didn't ask him about that flap. I will ask if he remembers.
3) I'm 99.99% sure there's no capillary dam in place, so we need to do something to fix this; my general comments on the 2nd photo are similar to what you described in your last paragraph. Basically, need to create that dam at the entry somehow. And yes, my thought was those 3 front tiles need to be removed, some mud removed to access the front edge of the hot mop and a barrier be created down to meet the hot mop then sealed in place before filling back the mud and replacing tiles. How to best accomplish this is the question.

Questions to you:
- Yes, the walls were tiled first then the floor. Can you clarify your concern about the "hot mop being covered by tile in both corners"? Which corners?
- For the stainless steel piece you describe, it would be like a U-shape, right? By 6" vertical coverage I'm assuming you mean up the outside of the half walls? Then retile over those 'flaps'?
- What is a Butech cap transition overlap?
- What's a ballpark $ for the fix you're envisioning? And rough time required?

Thanks,
Shawn
 

Jadnashua

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I'm not a fan of sloping towards the entrance of a shower...it can work, but is harder to implement properly. WIth a hotmop, and then deckmud over top, you have a lot of material that is designed to weep water. Keep in mind that the tile is not what is considered the waterproof layer...it is the liner. On top of that liner you have probably at least an inch thick layer of porous sand/cement mix called deckmud. Some moisture will enter that deckmud during and after each shower. A properly installed drain will have a weep path for that moisture to escape down the drain. Depending on how things were done, that moisture could be migrating out into the room underneath the tile. This is one major reason why I prefer a shower built using a topical waterproofing system since then, the waterproofing is directly underneath the tile/thinset layer and thus, there is much less possibility for buildup of moisture (at least any quantity) in the materials above the liner (typically, maybe 3/16" of thinset, max verses at least 1" of much more porous deckmud).
 

thingreen

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Redshoe,

No, unfortunately the day the hot mop was done i wasn't at home and it was done when I got back. So I don't have any prep photos. But my GC relayed to me that the hot mop guy told him the pan had to be presloped regardless of what we were doing with the tile sloping so based on that I infer that the pan was done right. Below is another photo angle showing the hot mop on the bench end.
Does my hot mop look different than others? I looked online and it seems to look like any other hot mop shower pan, for example


I can't figure out how to upload more than 1 photo at a time....
 

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thingreen

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John,

Appreciate the tips, really do. Again, I'm keeping an open mind to find a practical fix, so I'm surveying the best opinions out there. Your steel plate idea sounds elegant but I'm pretty sure isn't going to happen just because it's a more complex fix.

I have some confidence the shower waterproofing was done at least to 'standard' protocol with the hot mop guy being one who my GC has used for awhile, i.e. he didn't just try do it himself to save $. Yes, after hot mop the walls were covered with 60 min Jumbotex paper (see photo below) and overlapped. So water getting through the tiles should go right down to the floor pan. Half walls and bench were also covered with paper. Then mud and chicken wire and thinset/tiles. This should be pretty solid? I think the only step that was new to my GC/tiler was obviously the curbless part and needing a capillary break. Otherwise, if this were a standard shower or one with a curb that they've done many times, I don't think we'd be having this conversation. Yes, I'm the Guinea Pig.
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Yes, tiles were back buttered with thinset. I watched the tiler work, and my impression was he was pretty detail oriented.

I spoke to my GC today and fortunately he seemed receptive to my concern and also that this is a real problem. I think he understands the analogy I gave him (the mud layer is like a sponge underneath 60 min paper and once the water goes past the paper it will spread in any direction unless you put up a barrier to keep it inside the shower area). We looked at the stains and agreed the 3 tiles would need to come out and then dig out the mud to expose the hot mop pan. It may take some time for him to get into action and coordinate with the tiler but I feel better now that at least he didn't completely deny there was a problem.

We'll have to see how this goes.
 

ShowerDude

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clearly your tile guy is skilled , floated mud walls and wet set floors.

so much is changing so fast with materials and standards and design that finding and hiring someone with curbless and linear drain experience is the key.

many tile guys are great at flooring and have built only a few showers.

good to see you are givng your GC and tile guy a chance to right the situation as you stand behind them.
also sounds like they were straight with you in the beginning as to being new to linear /curbless...


this sounds good for everyone.??? I assume you havent yet used their names or buisness's name negatively on other sites either?


why dont you stop using that shower and put a dehumidifier in it for a few days, see what comes of your grout stain.....
 

thingreen

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redshoe,

Yeah, overall I feel we have a good working relationship with my GC for what he did for us, and he's been flexible the entire process. So I'd like to get this fixed up without having to involve a third party. No, I haven't spoken negatively of anyone. At this point, I don't think that would be helpful in trying to work this type of issue out. No, when we first bid the job we didn't even think about curbless/linear drain yet. It wasn't until a few weeks in that I started looking into it more and wanted to do it. That's part of the learning process for me as well. If I had known these questions to ask along the way, we could've easily put this capillary break in and they would've been fine with it. The GC didn't have any experience and said that. The tiler said he had some experience with curbless but I'm not sure exactly what.

That's why I'm here on this board because at this point, I feel like I need to provide direct input for what design/materials to use to get this done with the best chance for success. If we're going to open up the floor I want to get it done right and not make it a science project. Doesn't have to be a sexy or elegant fix, just needs to stop water from wicking out.

We will stop using the shower and a dehumidifier sounds like a good idea. GC said we'd leave it open to dry of course.

Does anyone know if I could use a few coats of Redgard directly on the mud surface to create the barrier? Would that be feasible?
 

ShowerDude

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i fear youll need to remove all entry tiles. on floor and near /around drain & lower courses on pony walls entrance to start.

your bathroom floor should have been raised and or shower slab area recessed FIRST. since theyve used a hot mop and
mud wals w/ luxe drain now the topical or thinbed approach is gone .


some simple redgard steps will not save you.

i would ask that the entire entry area be pulled up down to the hot mop, and some more pictures taken or evidence exposed so we can better assess a smart repair,you may find if pressed that your GC or tile guy took more pictures when you ask to have it exposed.


i still have not seen the drain connection and weep protection. ? the 3 wall corners at pony walls also very critical as is the grading at drain/entry area.

cannot assess a for sure repair until i know more...
 

ShowerDude

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The only idea that will work- ???? you are classic John!!!

how do you propose tying that into the pony walls on left /right entrance? w/o removing those tiles and getting down to the flashing on these corners?





Now I will go on record saying my friend John here is my go to guy when I need help!!!! but logically im not seeing it?
 

ShowerDude

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Are you kidding? I'm on my third cup.

You can't see it? My vision.

I make the template out of a piece of paper. remember that the floor mortar is a good 1.5" and ther is a 1.5" drop to the shower. Then I'll send you the picture.


could work, but its a total cowboy approach!!!!! an invisible built in dam of sorts...
 

JohnfrWhipple

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could work,....

I just texted you my vision. Left my camera cord at work so I can not share. The dotted lines represent the part that is hid from view. The drawing is from the dry side looking towards the shower. Once I sketched it I realized that there will need to be a little welding to pull of my vision.

Tell me you see it now? :)

If the OP sees this message. Message me via text and I'll send you the picture I drew. I'll post it here later tonight or tomorrow morning if you have no text.
 

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got it LOL.

im still crackin up at "the only idea that will work"

you are a one off, a one of a kind, dare i say an anomaly.......
 

thingreen

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Please tell me that the bench and up the walls around the bench they installed hot mop.

Like This
John, you bet it was (even I would've questioned that if it were left bare) Here's the photo. The paper went over after the complete hot mop. Like I said, I think the hot mop process was done correctly, i.e. everything on the inside was covered X" up.
IMAG1076.jpg

At this point, I'm going to assume that a leaky hot mop is not the problem and focus on the obvious missing capillary break in the mud layer.
 
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thingreen

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John/Roberto,

Thanks for the continued input. I'm learning through osmosis. Some answers to your questions:
- I'm almost positive my GC/tiler took no pictures during the remodeling process -- I didn't see them once snap a pic with their phones. GC did take pics at the end of course. I took as many as I could remember at each step.
- As for weep hole protection, here's a photo showing after the hot mop and before tiling started. There was tape/wrap around the drain to presumably protect from clogging the weep holes (I have to assume this is tiling 101 for any experienced tiler). I don't know if the tiler put any gravel, etc in there to prevent blockage but will ask when I get the first chance. So my take is that the attempt was made; the final quality of the effort...no idea.
IMAG1100.jpg


Per John's suggestion, I just spoke to a tech guy at ProtectoWrap (who make Jiffy Seal), described my problem and asked about Jiffy Seal 140/60. He said the JS 140/60 is reinforced and may be more difficult to use on a non-uniform surface. He suggested using their AFM-WM membrane product instead but then once I explained I only need to create roughly a 40" x 4" vertical barrier strip across the entry way, he suggested this detail tape because it's pliable and comes in a much more manageable 6" x 50' roll:
http://www.protectowrap.com/primers-mastics-other/detail-tapes-js500-afm500-psds/

Said to chip away the mud to form the surface desired then use the #6000 primer on the wall/slab/hot mop/mud surfaces. When it dries then use this tape which is pliable and can be molded to conform to the uneven surfaces. Can overlap and layer as well to form a completely waterproof sealed surface (monolithic bond?). There's a local shop that carries both of these products so I figure I'll go see what they look like in person.

My updated thoughts (I hope this makes sense):
- How strong is the bond between the hot mopped surface and mud? Is it safe to assume the mud is bonded pretty well so trying to separate it from the hot mop will damage the hot mop? Or will the mud "pop off" the hot mop fairly easily especially if it's wet now?
- I'm going to assume that it's unrealistic to think we can completely scrape away every bit of mud to expose a 'clean' hot mop surface on the insides of the pony walls (and I don't want to remove the pony wall tile with the glass door hinge!). Which means the fix can't rely on tying the pony wall hot mop surfaces together to form the barrier. Or tie ANYTHING to the hot mop directly because I won't be able to get to it without damaging something. So my idea is to not even try this type of fix.
- Instead, what if we just chip away a vertical mud surface that's enveloped by the outside pony wall surface, all the way down to the hot mop/slab. We can scrape the mud completely off the slab/hot mop (maybe) down in that area as well as 4-5" off the outside of the pony walls which is dry wall (no hot mop to worry about). With the half walls exposed, apply Redgard there to prevent any water wicking up the drywall via grout. Then apply the Protecto primer to the walls/hot mop/slab/mud surfaces across the entire entry to form the substrate. Then apply this detail tape across the width of the entry with maybe 4" extension on both pony walls. It would form a uniform and somewhat smooth vertical barrier across the entry.
- One obvious concern would be the inside corner joints where the tape/wall corner/mud meet. Could water in the mud seep through that joint and wick around the corner of the wall? Well, with no mud around the corner, the Redgard on the drywall, and this sealing tape forming a monolithic bond with the primed surface, I would think we'd be covered against this scenario?
- Fill the mud back in and then re-tile. I'm thinking instead of having 3 tiles in the entry, break them up to 6 tiles, creating a grout line across the outer surface of the pony walls that is above where the new barrier is. Trim the tape to the mud height here. Slather a line of silicone across the bathroom side edges of these entry tiles in the thinset layer to form a barrier to prevent water from wicking through the thinset.

Thoughts? Is this completely stupid?
 

ShowerDude

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thats a lot to take in!

the reality is your tile guy put it together he will know exactly how to take it apart. yes you should be able to get to hot mop unless he bonded his deck mud w/ thinset . even then he may.

i cant see the weep or drain connection in this pic.

i cannot comment on jiffy seal products and how they react w/modifieds etc.

i would disconcern yourself with glass hinges and remove what need be to stop the problem once.

take it down to the hot mop on all 4 pony wall corners and work your way out. once and only once!

you have a one of a kind situation here and I dont like doing a semi patch repair ....

confirm your luxe drain has a protected weep system and give the dry out a few days see what comes. ???
 
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