Need help moving toilet a few inches

Discussion in 'Plumbing Forum, Professional & DIY Advice' started by randalsw, Oct 5, 2010.

  1. randalsw

    randalsw New Member

    Messages:
    5
    Location:
    TX
    I am retiling the bathroom floor of a 1950s small bath. In the process I was hoping to move the toilet away from the corner a few inches. Currently the rough in is only 12" from the outside wall. It is 4" cast iron pipe. I know 15" is the minimum clearance for current code and the bathroom layout can accommodate going as far as 18" from the outside wall before the other side becomes a clearance issue. Also it would be nice to bring the rough in to 12" from the inside wall instead of the 14" that it currently is at. I am installing a Toto Drake that has a 12" rough in and the additional clearance from the front of the toilet to the tub would be nice to have though it currently meets code. The back of the toilet however will be a couple inches from the wall.

    From what I've pieced together I will need to cut the cast iron pipe a couple inches from the hub which is 5" from the inside wall. Then I will need to add a 4" no hub clamp preferably with 4 clamps vs the ones with only 2 ie something like the Fernco MD-44 or HD-44. From the clamp I will need a short 4" PVC piece to go into a 1/4 turn elbow that will be turned horizontal with a slight angle. From the elbow another another short 4" PVC piece to a 1/4 turn street? elbow turned vertically. Then I would add a new 4" pvc flange after I finish the subfloor rework and lay the tile.

    Does this sound about right or is there a better way to accomplish this? Also what is the best way to cut the cast iron pipe?

    I've attached a thumbnail view of the rough in. Clicking on the image will bring up a full size image.

    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 5, 2010
  2. Gsalet

    Gsalet George the Plumber

    Messages:
    83
    Location:
    San Francisco
    I would probably use a cast iron closet bend instead of using plastic, Making sure the closet bend is secured below the floor to prevent it from being pulled up when the toilet is tightened down is very important
  3. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,419
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    If you can cut the cast and couple it, with the needed room, that would work.
    Often, I find that the cast iron is very close to the floor, preventing a standard 1/4 bend from working. You're on site, so you would know if that is the case with yours.
    When they are tight up against the floor, I use a closet bend. A good plumber like hj does his work by using a new cast iron flange and bend, pouring a lead joint.

    If you don't feel like you have the expertise for that, you can also couple, or use an inside hub seal.

    [​IMG]
    I normally just pull the lead out of the cast iron tee, and use a 4x3 flush bush into a insert rubber pipe donut.
    I use a 4" hub closet flange over this 4x3 closet 90, cutting down the top of the 90 as needed.

    [​IMG]
  4. randalsw

    randalsw New Member

    Messages:
    5
    Location:
    TX
    Thanks both of you, I definately am not comfortable working with cast iron and lead joints. The pipe is very close to the floor level but I think I have enough room to work. I will be laying 3/4" T&G over the joists and building up the current dropped planking to be level with the joists to give a very strong subfloor. The top of the cast iron hub is currently level with the top of the joist. I've attached some pictures. Hopefully you can see what I am dealing with. I noticed that the current closet bend pipe is out of round and dented in lots of places. I'm not sure what kind of metal it is. Possibly lead as its very soft?

    Terry
    I think digging out the lead joint and doing the method you shown will work best for me. The main question I have now is what would be the best method to offset the closet bend to move it 3 to 6 inches in the short span available?

    Thanks for the help.

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Oct 5, 2010
  5. randalsw

    randalsw New Member

    Messages:
    5
    Location:
    TX
    I think I've figured out based on the dimensions from Charlotte pipe what should work almost exactly.
    Cast Iron Hub to Fernco 4x4 compression seal P44U-405
    P44U-405 to 4x3 Bushing from CP PVC 107
    Bushing to approximately 4" to 4.5" of 3" PVC pipe CP PVC 4300
    PVC Pipe to 3" PVC 45deg Street elbow CP PVC 323
    45deg elbow to 4x3 PVC closet bend PVC 330
    Closet bend to 4x4 Hub Closet Flange CP 800 or 811

    On the closet flange metal ring or PVC is best?

    By my rough estimate this should give a 3.4" offset and should fall roughly 7-7.5" from the cast iron hub.
    The only piece I'm having trouble locating is the closet elbow. Its not listed at Lowes. They only have the hub - hub 4x3.

    Will look at HD and lowes and if no luck I have a few other local options to try.
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2010
  6. randalsw

    randalsw New Member

    Messages:
    5
    Location:
    TX
    Another question according to TX plumbing code section 705.16.4:
    Is that donut considered a mechanical compression joint?
    If not I guess it won't be up to code and I will have to call in a pro to do the job.

    Edit ok nevermind I think I found the answer to be yes its a mechanical compression joint. However if someone wants to confirm that it will make me feel better.

    Last edited: Oct 6, 2010
  7. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,419
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    What you have is lead. You can't couple to lead, it just caves in.
    You will have to remove the lead bend from the cast iron fitting and start out fresh.
    That is why I showed the picture of the inside hub fernco. You will need the closet bend pictured with the 4" over the pipe closet flange. A simple S45 may give you what you need for offset, or a S22.
  8. randalsw

    randalsw New Member

    Messages:
    5
    Location:
    TX
    Thanks Terry. Yeah I figured out it was lead. I've been trying all day to get the lead out of the hub. I've tried hammer and small chissel. Stuck a 1/4" drill bit in and reamed out large sections. Used a pick to poke and scrape at it. After all that I've beaten my hands to death and don't feel like I've made any progress at all. I've looked at other threads discussing this and tried all those things based on suggestions in there.

    I'm about ready to call in a pro to finish it for me.
  9. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,324
    Location:
    New England
    The lead closet bend is normally attached to a brass sleeve. The brass sleeve is what is then leaded into the hub with molton lead. Once you get enough lead out, you can collapse or jockey the sleeve out of there. The hassle is, the sleeve isn't very long, so you can't get a lot of leverage, plus, it's the first one you've tried to remove!
  10. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,419
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    A few 1/4" drill bits and a flat blade screwdriver to pry out the lead.

    I like to nerf the end of the fitting, put some liquid soap on it, and then with a block of wood 2x4 and a hammer, tap in the 4x3 flush bush. Then I can glue the 3" pipe into the abs flush bush.

    Here is a page with pictures of working with lead joints.
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2010
  11. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    27,263
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    I use my soldering torch to melt the lead out.
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 7, 2010
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