Need help - lying plumber left me with a severely crippled system

[TamP]

I need help!

I had an old fashioned three faucet system for my shower/bath. This gave me full access to 100% of the available water pressure and full control over that pressure as well as the temperature.

A plumber just replaced all that with a single valve system (Gerber single control safe-temp pressure balance valve) that's a piece of garbage. Before he started, I triple checked with him and he assured me that everything would be the same with the new system. Clearly, he was lying worse than most politicians.

Now, a newborn infant has more water pressure than I do at the spout. In addition, the pressure at the shower head has been reduced, I have zero control over what little water presure there is, and this valve keeps me from adjusting the temperature to full hot as a people-are-too-dumb-to-do-it-right "feature".

This is **horrible**! I want to recover the ability and control that my original system had, which means I have two questions:


1. Is there any single valve system that I can easily replace this with that will give me the same 100% of the water pressure that I had before (at the spout as well as the showerhead), along with control over that pressure, and no limits on the temperature? I don't mind ordering from outside the US, as long as there's a company that will sell and ship to me, and as long as it's compatible with my plumbing. Also, in the same way that many showerheads use a simple ring as a flow restrictor that can easily be pulled out, if there are any single valve systems that can easily be modified to give me what I want, that is perfectly acceptible as well.


2. If the answer to the first question is no, how difficult would it be to rip everything out and revert back to the system I had before? I assume that someone still makes parts for that type of system.

 

[Jimbo]

As far as reverting.... yes you can still buy two handle and 3 handle shower valves, so it depends on what access you have inside the wall, and whether the tile or whatever has been patched,

A single handle pressure balanced valve, the most common these days because of price point, do have the side effect that there is temperture control only, and no volume control.

The upper limit of "hot" is controlled by a mechanical stop under the handle, and that can be adjusted.

Based on your concerns, I would have recommended a valve like the Delta 1700 series, which has separate controls for volume and temp.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Terry]

If he replaced the shower head, then it may be a flow restricted shower head.
Changing the shower head could make a difference there.
Though all new shower heads are supposed to be 2.5 gallons or less.

The old three and two handle valves are no longer code unless you install a balancing valve with them.

It's getting harder to find parts for the old valves.

 

[TamP]

As far as reverting.... yes you can still buy two handle and 3 handle shower valves, so it depends on what access you have inside the wall, and whether the tile or whatever has been patched,

Everything has been finished, including the tile. But I refuse to accept what the system is now, so as far as I'm concerned, it can all be torn out again.

But I didn't know if moving from a single to a triple faucet system was significantly more difficult then doing the reverse.

Important question - do the modern three handle systems restrict the pressure/volume in any way? Or is that only built into the single valve systems?

Based on your concerns, I would have recommended a valve like the Delta 1700 series, which has separate controls for volume and temp.

My understanding though, is that that would still be pressure regulated. What I researched seemed to indicate that all single valve systems sold in the US are, nowadays. In which case, the only hope for a single valve system would be one sold outside the US/Canada, or one that could be modified.

 

[TamP]

If he replaced the shower head, then it may be a flow restricted shower head.
Changing the shower head could make a difference there.
Though all new shower heads are supposed to be 2.5 gallons or less.

No, the shower head remained the same. That's how I know it's being restricted at the valve.

 

[Hackney plumbing]

I have a Delta 1700 series single lever presure balanced faucet with independent temp and volume control. My water pressure is 80psi and the water supply is 1/2" type L soft. No issues at all and I have a high flow showerhead. Atleast 4gpm a minute.

 

[Jadnashua]

First, when you remodel, it is required to update the control to one of the current, approved anti-scald devices. Now, there are a couple of ways to do this. The less expensive, and therefore more common is a single handle and with those you typically don't get any volume control other than on/off. They also have a high temperature limit setting, which is adjustable. Normally, it is pretty easy, but you have to take the trim off to access that control. Note, if you set it for an acceptable high limit in the winter, it might be too hot in the summer because the cold input is different. You can turn the limit control to max, but then you risk getting scalded - a child can be burned in less than 10-seconds - adults (except the elderly) generally have thicker skin, and you get a little more time.

A second type of control valve uses two knobs (this is totally separate from a potentially present diverter valve) - one controls the volume of the total output, and the second controls the temperature. How it adjusts the temperature differs between brands - some use a wax cartridge, some bi-metalic controls. Either provides thermostatic control of the output.

Your plumbing inspector would fail the installation without one that provides the anti-scald technology. It is your choice which type. If you could find a new 3-handle control and wanted to provide the required safety, the add-on pressure balance control would complicate the plumbing, but could happen. You'd probably have trouble when it came time to sell the house proving that it actually met requirements.

It is possible that there is some debris in the lines that is partially blocking the shower head. As noted, you can't legally buy a showerhead that uses more than 2.5gpm. Not all produce a good shower even at that max.

 

[TamP]

I have a Delta 1700 series single lever presure balanced faucet with independent temp and volume control. My water pressure is 80psi and the water supply is 1/2" type L soft. No issues at all and I have a high flow showerhead. Atleast 4gpm a minute.

I don't know what the numbers were on what I had before. I can tell you that if you ran the tub spout on max output, it would hurt your hand to put it under the flow.

 

[TamP]

First, when you remodel, it is required to update the control to one of the current, approved anti-scald devices. Now, there are a couple of ways to do this. The less expensive, and therefore more common is a single handle and with those you typically don't get any volume control other than on/off. They also have a high temperature limit setting, which is adjustable. Normally, it is pretty easy, but you have to take the trim off to access that control. Note, if you set it for an acceptable high limit in the winter, it might be too hot in the summer because the cold input is different. You can turn the limit control to max, but then you risk getting scalded - a child can be burned in less than 10-seconds - adults (except the elderly) generally have thicker skin, and you get a little more time.

A second type of control valve uses two knobs (this is totally separate from a potentially present diverter valve) - one controls the volume of the total output, and the second controls the temperature. How it adjusts the temperature differs between brands - some use a wax cartridge, some bi-metalic controls. Either provides thermostatic control of the output.

Your plumbing inspector would fail the installation without one that provides the anti-scald technology. It is your choice which type. If you could find a new 3-handle control and wanted to provide the required safety, the add-on pressure balance control would complicate the plumbing, but could happen. You'd probably have trouble when it came time to sell the house proving that it actually met requirements.

It is possible that there is some debris in the lines that is partially blocking the shower head. As noted, you can't legally buy a showerhead that uses more than 2.5gpm. Not all produce a good shower even at that max.

It is absolutely not debris in the lines - it's the new valve. And what's legal to buy versus what's legal to own isn't the same.

All I want is the same setup I had before - left faucet controls the flow of hot water, right controls the flow of cold, and the middle controls the flow going to the shower head. That sounds a lot simpler than what you mentioned, and as far as I'm concerned - it's better.

 

[Hackney plumbing]

I don't know what the numbers were on what I had before. I can tell you that if you ran the tub spout on max output, it would hurt your hand to put it under the flow.

I understand,maybe you have some trash that blew into the cartridge after it was installed or the showerhead restricting your flow,or even the showerhead is clogged with trash. If your valve doesn't have a seperate temp and volume controls the only option would be to get a valve that does. Sorry your having trouble,thats a bummer
It could have trash from installation even if its new...or just debris from the citys water line.

 

[Jimbo]

I don't know what the numbers were on what I had before. I can tell you that if you ran the tub spout on max output, it would hurt your hand to put it under the flow.

Sounds like your pressure is too high, but in any event you may never get another valve that does that.

 

[TamP]

I understand,maybe you have some trash that blew into the cartridge after it was installed or the showerhead restricting your flow,or even the showerhead is clogged with trash. If your valve doesn't have a seperate temp and volume controls the only option would be to get a valve that does. Sorry your having trouble,thats a bummer
It could have trash from installation even if its new...or just debris from the citys water line.

It's not trash or clogged lines. And that's just it, I can't just replace it with another single valve system (made and sold in the US). To my knowledge, they all regulate the flow.

So, if it's not one from another country, or one that can be modified, it has to be an old fashioned three valve system.

 

[TamP]

Sounds like your pressure is too high, but in any event you may never get another valve that does that.

We're talking about basic valves, which are sold all over the place as replacement pieces for older plumbing. There shouldn't be an issue for parts, I wouldn't think.

 

[JohnjH2o1]

It's not trash or clogged lines. And that's just it, I can't just replace it with another single valve system (made and sold in the US). To my knowledge, they all regulate the flow.

So, if it's not one from another country, or one that can be modified, it has to be an old fashioned three valve system.

So what you are saying is the codes we have are for everyone except you.

John

 

[Hackney plumbing]

It's not trash or clogged lines. And that's just it, I can't just replace it with another single valve system (made and sold in the US). To my knowledge, they all regulate the flow.

So, if it's not one from another country, or one that can be modified, it has to be an old fashioned three valve system.

A Delta multi choice rough valve and a 17t cartridge will give you plenty of water and you can regulate it both temp and volume. meets code and meets your application. Thats all i can say

 

[TamP]

So what you are saying is the codes we have are for everyone except you.

John

There's nothing illegal about older plumbing. There was nothing legally compelling me to change it. I was not looking to remodel - the plumber wanted to do it, and the only reason I let him was because he assured me there would be no difference.

I don't think there's anything wrong, under these circumstances, with me saying that it should be put back the way it was.

 

[Hackney plumbing]

I need help!

I had an old fashioned three faucet system for my shower/bath. This gave me full access to 100% of the available water pressure and full control over that pressure as well as the temperature.

A plumber just replaced all that with a single valve system (Gerber single control safe-temp pressure balance valve) that's a piece of garbage. Before he started, I triple checked with him and he assured me that everything would be the same with the new system. Clearly, he was lying worse than most politicians.

Now, a newborn infant has more water pressure than I do at the spout. In addition, the pressure at the shower head has been reduced, I have zero control over what little water presure there is, and this valve keeps me from adjusting the temperature to full hot as a people-are-too-dumb-to-do-it-right "feature".

This is **horrible**! I want to recover the ability and control that my original system had, which means I have two questions:


1. Is there any single valve system that I can easily replace this with that will give me the same 100% of the water pressure that I had before (at the spout as well as the showerhead), along with control over that pressure, and no limits on the temperature? I don't mind ordering from outside the US, as long as there's a company that will sell and ship to me, and as long as it's compatible with my plumbing. Also, in the same way that many showerheads use a simple ring as a flow restrictor that can easily be pulled out, if there are any single valve systems that can easily be modified to give me what I want, that is perfectly acceptible as well.


2. If the answer to the first question is no, how difficult would it be to rip everything out and revert back to the system I had before? I assume that someone still makes parts for that type of system.

I answered your question. A Delta multi-choice rough in valve and a 17t cartridge will give you what your looking for. Whats the big deal?

 

[Terry]

I doubt that any single handle valve is going to throw out the volume of water that you had.
That part is true, and it's too bad the plumber didn't realize how important that was to you.

Anytime there is a complete remodel, we put in valves that meet code.
It's the law.

If we don't, "we" get in trouble.
And frankly, it's not worth it for something silly like that.
The pressure balanced valve protects people, and so now it's required.

I haven't used the Gerber valve, it may be like the American Standard valve I installed the other day.

Many of the plumbers here are using Delta and Moen, and there are plenty of other choices too.

I'm not sure which Gerber valve you have, they have been bought out by Globe Union, the same people that make Danze.
http://www.gerberonline.com/Catalog.aspx?categoryID=2334


http://gerberonline.com/fileLib/49-800-SS.pdf

 

[hj]

valves

The valves DO NOT regulate the flow, other than when there is a pressure imbalance. The shower head is the flow limiter. You have a disfunctional valve for some reason, but we cannot tell what the cause is.

 

[Jadnashua]

Most valves show the max flow at a specific input pressure in their specifications. Look yours up, then take a bucket and a watch or stopwatch and see what flow you get. 1/2" supply lines typically can only flow about 5gpm. 3/4" supply can flow over double that. If your old valve was 3/4" and it was replaced with a 1/2" valve, that would affect the total flow considerably. a 3/4" valve is considerably more expensive than a 1/2" one. With only one showerhead, it won't make a difference. You would notice a difference in how long it takes to fill the tub, though.

When you do work, if you repair what you have, you don't need to bring it up to code. If you replace it, you do.

How do you know there's not something caught in the showerhead? Did you take it off and run the water through the shower arm? Did you look at it? Same with the valve.