Need Grundfos SQE parts

Discussion in 'Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog' started by psgcooldog, Oct 10, 2009.

  1. psgcooldog

    psgcooldog New Member

    Messages:
    4
    Location:
    Delaware
    Folks,

    I need some help. The radial bearing in my Grundfos SQE10C-160 MSE3 motor is coming apart, and Grundfos, in their infinite wisdom, doesn't effing sell ANY parts for this pump in this country.

    Does anybody have a dead Grundfos pump motor that I can beg, buy, or steal? I suspect that any SQ or SQE pump motor in the range of 3/4 to 2 HP would probably do.

    If you can help, please let me know.

    I suspect that grundfos-sucks.com is going to be appearing on the internet any day now.

    Thanks in advance,
    Paul
  2. ExpressWellService

    ExpressWellService Junior Member

    Messages:
    4
    Location:
    SW Ontario
    Sorry... shes garbage, those pumps are not know for lasting very long. If you don`t need a 3" pump , I would suggest going with a 4" that is not another Grundfos.
  3. psgcooldog

    psgcooldog New Member

    Messages:
    4
    Location:
    Delaware
    Gee, that's really helpful!

    (grin)

    If I can find the bearing, I can probably get another several years out of it, and that beats spending another $1,200 for the equivalent Franklin pump right now.

    Somebody must have a few dead ones sitting on a shelf in the back room that they'd be happy to see the last of...

    Mostly, I think the G-D Grundfos *company* is garbage, for selling a well-pump, and *refusing* to sell parts for it. The rebuild kit is available in Europe, or at least there is a part number for it.

    When I bought it, it was the only one I could find that had the specs that I wanted.

  4. nhmaster

    nhmaster Master Plumber

    Messages:
    3,189
    Location:
    S. Maine
    I doubt you will find anyone with any "dead ones" anywhere. Most toss them in the dumpster, they have no value. We don't keep them for parts.
  5. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,549
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    I guess you mean the radial bearing in the motor? There are also radial "bushings" in the pump. It is very unusual for just the radial bearing to go out. There are usually other problems, and fixing the bearing may just let it run a few days before something else causes a failure.

    The "Franklin equivalent" will not have the same problem but, will have others. If the "specs" you wanted included a "Variable Speed" of any kind, that is where your problems will come from. Better change your specs.

    Here is where I see most of the Variable Speed type pumps. From here they are hauled off to replinish our land fills.

    Attached Files:

  6. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    I always sent my used pumps and other metals to a junk yard to be 'recycled'.
  7. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,549
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    The way pumps are built these days, there is not much that can be recycled anymore. Plastic or "composite" impellers, internal electronic circuit boards, and encapsulated windings makes it practically impossible, and certainly non profitable to try and recycle. Manufacturers have turned it into a "throw away" society. Products are suppose to be trendy, expensive, short lived, and non-repairable. Electronic products can be made of materials that are mined and smuggled out of the Congo with slave or child labor. They can be manufactured in third world countries with no heath or environmental concerns. Their use can cause "stray voltage" or "harmonics" that can be devastating to animal or human health, as well as the electrical grid. Profits go to non-American corporations, and even countries with dictators and despots in control.

    Then after their short life, products end up filling our landfills and leaching heavy metals into our water supply. If corporations can deceptively convince the public that a product will save energy, then they can still call it "green", and people will eat it up. However, the only thing "green" about it, is what is coming out of your pocket to make all this happen.

    Products that are made to last can even use more energy, and still be more "green" than products designed for "planned obsolescence". Not that well built products will use more energy but, they could use more energy and still be better for the environment.

    The worst thing you can do is fall for the products that big corporations are spending the most money advertising. They don’t push products to help save you money or save the environment. No mater what they actually say, they spend the most money advertising products that make them the most money. Whatever makes big corporations the most money, cost you the most, and is usually the worst thing for the environment.

    Your "specs" should not only be concerned with gallons per minute, pressure required, and energy savings, but should also require long lasting products that can be recycled, which causes the least damage to the environment and your pocket book.
  8. nhmaster

    nhmaster Master Plumber

    Messages:
    3,189
    Location:
    S. Maine
    You mean my Prius is a scam :(

    Brilliant Post there VM, well though out and well said. I just wish everyone that buys into this scam would take a minute to really think things through before falling for this whole green religion.
  9. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,549
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    Thanks PG, but don’t get me started on the "hybrid vehicles". You only have to do a little math to figure that one out. By the time you drive enough miles, to save enough gas, to pay for the difference in purchase price, you either need new batteries or a new car, so you never break even. Transferring the wealth from oil energy from Saudi Arabia, to battery energy from Japan doesn’t help America at all. Hybrid vehicles are another good example of big corporations making money, by making you think you are saving money and the environment. Again, look at what they spend the most money advertising, and stay away from that.

    "Green" should be dead give away for things to stay away from.
  10. nhmaster

    nhmaster Master Plumber

    Messages:
    3,189
    Location:
    S. Maine
    I think I'll stick with my 97 Civic then, it gets around 35 mpg with the air on. It's paid for itself a half dozen times already. Oh and best of all.... it's painted... wait for it..............Green :D
  11. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,549
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    That is the most "Green" thing I have heard all day!
  12. psgcooldog

    psgcooldog New Member

    Messages:
    4
    Location:
    Delaware
    So, I located a dead 3/4HP SQ pump. The upper radial motor bearing (bushing) was the same. With any luck, mine will now run for another few years.

    I did learn one thing - the newer model "B" motors are NOT meant to come apart, ever. It took a grinder, torch, hammer and chisel to get the damned thing apart.

    My old model "A" motor comes apart with an open-end wrench.

    Anybody that is junking any SQ or SQE equipment - please hang on to it for me.

    Thanks,
    Paul
  13. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,549
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    What kind of "specs" do you have that requires one of these things? I doubt that you will get a few more years from the one you have.
  14. psgcooldog

    psgcooldog New Member

    Messages:
    4
    Location:
    Delaware
    I'm running household water, as well as two "pump and dump" geothermal heat pumps. My peak requirement is about 30gpm, with a very low head. Efficiency is important - if it wasn't, I wouldn't have bothered with the geothermal units.
  15. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,549
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    For many years I have heard form owners of open loop geo systems that pumping cost quickly takes a back seat to the cost of continually replacing the pump system. With variable demands form a house/geo combination, regular pumps using pressure tanks, would cycle themselves to death on a regular basis. It doesn’t take long to figure out that spending an extra 20 dollars a month on electricity and having a pump system last 20 years, would be far less expensive than saving 20 bucks a month on electricity using pump systems that must be replaced every 3 to 5 years or less.

    In the last 10 years or so I have been hearing these same complaints from people who are using variable speed pumps. I have been working with variable speed pumps for more than 20 years, so I understand them very well. Whether you want to believe it or not, variable speed pumps were designed as a cash cow for the manufacturer, not to save you money. Manufacturers claim they save energy which is the "hook" that snags most people. The reality is that anytime you vary the speed of the pump, even though you can see the amps decrease, you are using more energy per gallon. Even when running at full RPM, the parasitic losses of a VFD cause you to get fewer gallons per kilowatt used.

    There is nothing more efficient than a properly sized standard pump, running at it’s best efficiency point, and drawing pure sinusoidal power directly from the grid. The VFD control itself uses extra energy, and the harmonics and stray voltage they produce cause the motor to be about 5% less efficient. Then when you have a unit drawing 1.5 HP while producing 30 GPM, it is using more energy per gallon when slowed to produce 5 GPM and still drawing a 3/4 HP load. 1.5 HP producing 30 GPM is drawing .05 HP per gallon. The same pump slowed to 5 GPM and still drawing a 3/4 HP load is using .15 HP per gallon produced. This is 3 times more energy used than a properly sized pump.

    However, the biggest expense is because of "planned obsolescence", which is the main reason manufacturers have for designing variable speed pumps. They can more easily predict and plan the length of time for failure of a pump system. With standard pumps using pressure tanks, the number of cycles would determine the life of the pump system. Manufacturers had built in enough quality for the pump to cycle an average of 7 years before it failed. Then things like Cycle Stop Valves came along that reduce the number of cycles considerably, and would triple or quadruple the life of pump systems. This was completely unacceptable to pump manufacturers, so they quickly devised a plan to use variable speed technology, that had been used in industrial applications since 1968, to compete with the constant pressure performance of the CSV in residential applications.

    They designed little Driemel tool size pumps that only weigh 11 pounds and spin 10,600 RPM, with computerized electronics built into the motor. These will last many times less than standard heavy duty pumps that were built like bench grinders, that weigh 40 pounds, only spin 3450 RPM, and do not have any electronic components. Then they lie about variable speed pumps saving energy to make you think it is the "green" thing to do. Once you buy into the variable speed hype, you are locked into a perpetual cycle of regular and expensive replacements, which is how they keep the cash flow flowing through these big corporations.
    Usually after people have been through 3 or 4 of these, they realize that saving energy is more about longevity of the equipment, than supposedly saving a few bucks a month on the electric bill. Then after switching back to a standard type pump, they discover that they were never actually saving even a few bucks a month with the previous variable speed systems.

    The best way to save energy and make the pump system last with a geo open loop, is to use a 2 pump set up. You need as small a well pump as you can get that will produce 30 GPM at low pressure. Then you can use a jet pump as a booster to the house, to increase pressure for the showers and sinks. See the following picture.

    Attached Files:

  16. harleyhf

    harleyhf New Member

    Messages:
    3
    Location:
    La Porte Indiana
    Hello Valveman - Regarding Grundfros insights - related question as new member. I had just ordered for install today a Grundfros 15 SQE for my 5 ton Comfort-Aire GeoMax 2 geothermal heat pump (when calling for heat or cooling, 7 gpm demand at normal operation and 15 gpm at extreme weather) when I read your comments on short life and repeated failures - I was afraid of this but the well installer pooh-poohed it, but it only makes logical sense. I read your comments, am in agreement, saw the drawing you attached from http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/index2.html and realized this might be a better future alternative for my lake house, which doesn't have alot of water demand, except on weekends when kids come over and use the house along with us. May I ask, would I be better off putting in a oversized large pressure tank and a 15 gpm or 20gpm 2 wire pump than going with the Grundfros 15SQE, in view of pump life? Any recommendations on what size well to install when mixing 5 ton geothermal in with two bathrooms, dishwasher, washer for 2600 sq ft house? Thank you in advance
  17. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,549
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    If 15 GPM is the maximum demand for the heat pump, then a 20 GPM pump would be perfect for the heat pump/house use. A standard 3450 RPM pump will last much longer than the 10,600 RPM SQE. All you have to do is limit the cycles per day to make a standard pump last a long time. A big pressure tank will probably not limit the cycling enough by itself. Three or four big tanks would. However, big tank(s) can cause problems with the flow through the heat pump. With a big tank the pressure will continue to vary between 40 and 60 PSI. As the pressure varies, the controlled flow rate through the heat pump will also vary. The house would also see this variation in pressure. And the variation in pressure means the pump is still cycling.
    A small tank and a CSV can be used with a 20 GPM pump. The CSV will maintain constant pressure for the heat pump and the house. The tank will supply water for small intermittent uses of water like rinsing a toothbrush or filling the ice maker. When long term uses of water are required, as for the heat pump or a shower, the CSV will maintain a constant pressure and keep the pump from cycling.

    The SQE has only been available for about 11 years. I doubt that you will find anyone with an 11 year old SQE. Even if there are a couple that old, the SQE has had no less than 5 updates or major change ups since it began. They don’t make changes to them continually because they are working properly but, because they continue to have problems. Some areas they seem to last longer than others but, I think you will find that 3 years is about the average life expectancy. A standard 3450 RPM pump with a CSV to limit the cycling could last 20+ years. Figure the cost of replacing the pump every 3-5 years compared to a pump system that will last 20 years, and you will see why longevity of the pump equipment is the most important thing required for a heat pump to be saving energy.
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