Need fix for a low, rusted, and slightly tilted closet flange

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Holybuzz

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I'm re-doing a 4x5 1/2 bath in tile and radiant heat. (BTW, I've posted this question to the John Bridge forum, but I came here to look for more input.)

Issue 1:
The bathroom is on a crawl space and has a slight slope to it. From the entry to the opposite wall (5ft) there is a loss in height of about 3/4 inch. I plan of leveling the floor either with shims or with floor leveller (opinions welcome), but once I level the floor, the flange will be slightly out of level.

Issue 2:
The cast iron flange is toast. It has no collar all. Because the flange height will have to be raised anyway (I'm going from thin plywood and vinyl to 3/4 plywood, radiant cable, ditra and tile), I was hoping I could use one of those Twist 'n' Seal units (PVC or new cast iron) screwed to the floor, with or without spacer(s). My hope is that there will be enough "wiggle" room that, together with a good wax ring, the thing will be OK.

Since there's an elbow about eight inches down from the flange, I'm not crazy about snap cutting the pipe from the crawl space.

I'm leaning toward the cast iron twist 'n' seal. Any thoughts?

Keith
 

Holybuzz

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BTW, photos

Some pics:
 

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Holybuzz

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Moved!

I moved this question over to the plumbing forum. Didn't mean to, as it were, crash the toilet party.

K
 

Gary Swart

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I would remove the floor and sub floor, then sister new joists to the old. Have a new flange installed after the entire new floor is in place. The flange should set on top of the finished floor. You are going to a lot of work so do it right. The cost to have a plumber install a new CI flange will not be a major cost item in this job. The floor leveling material you refer to is not intended to do what you have to do. It is meant to take out minor low spots on concrete floors prior to laying vinyl.
 

Holybuzz

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The five-minute plumber

Well, I really didn't want to call a plumber. And I don't know of any that will charge for only five minutes work. ;)

I took it off myself. It took me 20 minutes and a 1/4 inch drill bit (I guess I won't be going to the plumbing Olympics next year), but it's off.

I drilled a series of holes into the lead (that's what's between the flange and the soil pipe. One of those holes contains half of a drill bit. Oh well.), then I gently tapped the flange down. I considered prying up with a pry bar, but the pipe moved more than I liked. Tapped it down, flange came loose, then pried off the lead and removed the flange.

Next question:

From the top of the pipe to the elbow join below is 5 inches. (BTW, that subfloor is coming out.) Does it still make sense to snap off the pipe and put in a fernco and plastic flange? Or is it just as good to drop in a new flange without cutting. Again, the old floor was 3/8 inch ply and vinyl. The new floor is 3/4" ply subfloor, 1/2" plywood, radiant cable + mortar, ditra + mortar + tile. IOW, I have a lot to add to the height.

As for the aforementioned slight tilt of the riser, I think I can compensate for that with the new flange.
 

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Jadnashua

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There are some long throat flanges...

If you continued, and took the riser out of the elbow below (same technique), you could install a Fernco donut, pvc, and a new flange. You would need to measure carefully the inside diameter, as the stores only carry a few sizes, but they make probably hundreds. There isn't a real standard size for the hub on a piece of CI, so Fernco makes multiple sizes with small differences in OD to fit. Get it too tight, and it's a bear ton insert, too loose, and it leaks.

That would probably the cleanest way unless you can find a flange that would fit and give the depth you need. The donut would allow you a little lattitude to plumb up vertical as well.
 

Holybuzz

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Swap CI for plastic?

Jim,

I'm not sure I follow. If I take the entire riser out, what will the fernco attach to? Wouldn't I be better off cutting the CI, leaving enough riser in place to attach to? Or is there a fernco that connects the CI elbow to the PVC? That can't be right, can it.

I get your point about the vertical wiggle room that a fernco would provide. Having some "play" would be just what the doctor ordered.

Tomorrow: sistering.
 

Gary Swart

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The flooring in the photos reconfirm my contention that you should remove the entire floor down to the joists. If your next question is regarding the sistering of new floor joists, that means you nail, screw, or bolt new joists to the old, with the new ones level. That is assuming the old joists are still sound. If not, then take them out, too and just go with new joists.
 

Jadnashua

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There are banded couplings that fit over the pipe with clamps, which you could use if you cut the pipe, or if you remove it entirely to the hub, they also make a donut that fits INSIDE the hub, then the pvc slides inside of it. The whole thing is then sealed by compression of the pvc piece pressing against the hub via the rubber donut. The hassle here is getting the proper sized donut...too small and it leakes, too big and you can't compress it enough to get the pvc pipe in.

If the cast iron is in good shape, you can cut or snap it off. If it is degraded, trying to snap it could crush it, leaving a ragged piece, then you'd have to take it out anyways. Snapping usually works, but you never know for sure. Cutting works, but can be a major pain if you don't have room to work.
 

Holybuzz

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Internal donut

Jim,

OK, got it. I was fixated on the concept of an outer Fernco donut (like the one in your link), one that wraps around the cast iron and the PVC. If there's one that goes inside the hub, that seems like a better solution. I'll do it that way.
 

Holybuzz

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Clarification

The Fernco donut is not, as such, a coupling. It's a gasket-like thingy that you push into the hub. You then push into it a length of PVC as your new riser. (BTW, the hub, the donut, and the PVC are all 4", so "push" is the right word. But at least it's a tight seal.) Then you have a riser into which you insert a new PVC flange. I'm using one with three inner bolts that you turn to expand a rubber band on the "tail" of the flange. Tightening the bolts forces out the rubber band/gasket and forms a water- and gas-tight seal with the PVC riser.

In theory. I haven't done it yet. But I'm expecting that a thorough cleaning and brushing of the hub and I'll be good to go.
 

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