Need Basement bathroom Rough-In advice. Pics included.

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khedrei

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I am looking for some advice on exactly where to put the vent(s) in this situation. I want to do this properly and use whatever sizes of pipe required by code. I have the chisel on hand so I will do what is necessary regarding distances from traps to the vent.

This is my own personal basement.

Two pictures included are side by side.

The size of the room is about 8' X 5'

Shower on the far right, toilet in the middle, sink on the left.

The run from the shower drain to the main sewer line is about 8.5 feet. Distance from the toilet after it makes the bend is about 5.5 feet. What I planned so far is to run the shower in 2 inch abs, to a wye fitting (2x3x3) from the toilet which would be 3 inch and that would run to the main line. What I do not know is exactly where to put the vent or vents and what size they should be. I assume the vanity can be hooked up basically at the wall tying into the current drain and vent as it is right now.

The vertical pipes are the drain from the kitchen sink upstairs and to the right of it is a vent to the roof. Previously, there was a laundry tub hooked up where you see it cut.

Also, the builder looks to have used green PVC. I don't see that sold at big box stores. Is it the same grade as white? Should I be running all this in PVC or ABS? Can I use white?

If my sizes or plan is incorrect or not ideal please let me know. I'm sure there is more than one way to do this, so I am looking to keep it as simple as possible.

Thanks very much.
 

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Tom Sawyer

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See that green pipe? That ain't legal and shouldn't be there. See that elbow connected to it? Neither is that. Hate to bare bad news but you are currently at the "call a licensed plumber" stage.
 

khedrei

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I've done a bit of an internet search and I can't find anything that says green PVC is illegal. I'm also not sure why the elbow would be illegal. I'm not a licenced plumber but I'm smart enough to know that a colour of a pipe isn't enough to determine if it is illegal. There is more to it than that.

From what I have experienced, the purpose of this this discussion forum is for discussion and advice. Although, "Call a licenced plumber" is technically advice... with no reason behind your comment I would say it isn't exactly the reason that this forum is here. I know a liscenced plumber, and I may end up calling him if I feel I need his help. He is busy, and I won't bother him if I don't have to. It seems like a relatively simple job.

I'm certainly not tearing up my entire finished basement to replace green PVC pipes that are less than 15 years old. While the OBC might be different now, it doesn't mean those pipes are no good, and would not require them to be removed.

Thanks for taking the time to reply as I'm sure your intentions were good. I will wait for some more replies.

**Update: I checked the OBC and it states underground plastic pipe must be rated to
CAN/CSA-B 182.1, Plastic Drain and Sewer Pipe and Pipe Fittings; • CAN/CSA-B 182.2, PVC Sewer Pipe and Fittings, (PSM Type). This pipe is 182.1. From what I can tell that is up to code. Unless there is something I am missing. What I don't know is if I can use ABS.
 
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BMWpowere36m3

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I think he's referring to the elbow not being a long turn and the green pipe being SDR? Which I think can only be used outside the building/foundation/slab for sewer...
 

hj

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quote; but I'm smart enough to know that a colour of a pipe isn't enough to determine if it is illegal.

You are not as smart as you think you are. The COLOR of the pipe means it is "undersized, thin wall S&D pipe", which is ONLY approved for underground OUTSIDE the building, and in my experience should not even be allowed there. The elbow is NOT a long radius one which also makes it "illegal" for that location. In fact, the elbow is NOT EVEN short radius one which would be a marginally useful one. Your green pipe will NOT FIT any PVC or ABS fitting. This forum is for discussion and advice to do DIY repairs, NOT to do a construction job.
 
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khedrei

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Actually I am definitely as smart as I think I am. Meaning I know my limitations and when and where to ask for advice.

The OBC says this:

Ontario Building Code (OBC) requirements for a drainage system constructed in conjunction with a building are complex. It is critical that design professionals gain a firm understanding to specify code-compliant pipe products. Section 7.2.5.10. of the OBC states plastic pipe and fittings used underground, outside a building, or under a building in a drainage system shall be certified to: • CAN/CSA-B 182.1, Plastic Drain and Sewer Pipe and Pipe Fittings; • CAN/CSA-B 182.2, PVC Sewer Pipe and Fittings, (PSM Type); • CAN/CSA-B 182.4, Profile (Ribbed) PVC Sewer Pipe and Fittings; • CAN/CSA-B 182.6, Profile Polyethylene Sewer Pipe and Fittings; or • CAN/CSA B 182.7, Multi-layer PVC Sewer Pipe (PSM Type) having Reprocessed-Recycled Content. Plastic pipe shall have a stiffness equal to or greater than 320 kPa. Additional CSA standards for plastic pipe are referenced in the OBC, but for clarity’s sake, only standards primarily used for drainage are listed here.

My pipe has a rigidity of 320kPa, and is 182.2. And would "under a building in a drainage system" be relevant because it is under my building...?

I am also not going to argue with you about what the limitations of project scopes that we are allowed to discuss in this forum are. There are plenty of people and plenty of threads that go into topics very similar to this, if not more complicated. I am not interested in unproductive advice from know-it-all's like yourself. I for one am happy to share the knowledge I have with others and educate them. If I am not sure of something, I will simply say so. But I wouldn't bother commenting on something simply to state it is wrong with absolutely no advice on how to make it right. The title of this forum is "Plumbing Forum, Professional and DIY advice. I am not a plumber, and don't give plumbing advice. That is why I am here asking for some. Not sure why it is so hard to get. I remember some of my first posts on here were answered very quickly, were concise and to the point. For some reason the quality of response has diminished over the years.
 
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khedrei

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So back to the topic....

The elbow is easy to change. You say a short radius one is better than a regular elbow. I understand why you would want a long radius one so why the mention of a short radius being useful? I suppose that is the kind I should put in?

The current fitting is attached to the pipe, so why would a PVC or ABS fitting not be able to attach to it?

As far as the venting, I would be appreciative of any helpful advice.
 

Cacher_Chick

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SDR "green"pipe is not permitted to be used in the USA inside a building. It does not have the same wall thickness as schedule 40 PVC or ABS, which would be what we would use. Because of the difference in wall thickness, the pipe fittings are not interchangeable.

The vent must be vertical off the shower's trap arm, before the connection to the 3" line. Your local codes will determine if the vent must be 2" or if 1-1/2 would be acceptable.
 

Tom Sawyer

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You're not allowed to use it inside a building in Canada either. The building drain has to be sch40 or greater and extend at least 36" from the exterior face of the foundation so, when you go to have the work inspected, the inspector is going to make you dig up and replace that.

The elbow is of improper radius but it is also of a non-compatible polyfenol resin which makes the joint illegal.

So not technically advice but hopefully the reason why I said to call a licensed plumber.
 

hj

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quote; so why would a PVC or ABS fitting not be able to attach to it?

Get a fitting, cut the pipe, and try it. Then you will see what we mean. YOUR pipe is 4" I.D. the same as proper pipes, but it has a very thin wall, which makes the O.D. smaller that what the fittings are designed for. You would have to find "thin wall fittings" to match your pipe. and since I have worked on MANY thin wall systems where the pipe has collapsed, because it has weak thin walls, I would NEVER use it. I mentioned "short radius" because even that would have been better than that "vent elbow" with a square radius/turn. But, in the end, it is YOUR building so you can do whatever you want to with it, regardless of what we advise, even though we have many, many more years of experience than you do. "A man convinced against his will, is still unconvinced".
 
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Tom Sawyer

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Heres how this works.

If you are getting a permit and inspection then the professionals will most likely chime in and give some advice.

If you're going to forgo permits and inspection then the advice is most likely going to come from other DIY members that may or may not get it right.

Now as for the code you quoted, not the word drainage. Drainage refers to drain water as in rain runoff. IOW, you could use that pipe type for French drains and rain water run off. What it is not rated for is waste.
 

khedrei

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Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the advice, and I am looking into my options because I do want to do this properly. But considering I asked questions regarding venting and all I got at first was a simple, that's wrong, call a plumber... Well, I could have done that. I'm looking to get advice and do it myself, but properly.

I guess it would have been good to have a plumber working in Ontario familiar with the codes around here chime in. I had a hard time believing that a house built 15 years ago would be full of pipe not up to minimum code. I didn't want to bother him, but I just called a friend of a friend who has been a Plumber in Ontario for about 15 years. That green pipe is perfectly legal under a building as a sanitary line. In fact it is slightly above minimum code which according to him would be SDR 11. The transition joints from PVC to ABS are perfectly legal as well, using ABS to PVC cement. While you all quite likely know your local codes where you work and have years of experience doing proper work, it appears you don't know the OBC and are awfully quick to tell people they are wrong, instead of saying something along the lines of "around here, that doesn't meet minimum code, I would do this". Or "I'm not sure about that green pipe where you are so check into it, but I would set up the bathroom like this..." which was the main purpose for my thread.

He told me to cut in a 4x4x4 PVC wye, 5 feet from the stack. Can use Fernco rubber couplings for ease of working with it. Use an adapter/reducer in the wye fitting to transision to 3 inch ABS and run my bathroom group off of that. The current ABS 90 at the bottom of the stack has a normal sleeve adapter in order to deal with the difference in size of the OD of the pipe. That can stay. I will ask him about weather I should change to a longer radius elbow though.

I am going to get him to come by at some point to discuss the venting.

I do thank you guys for your input. You have made sure that I asked him the right questions and considered everything.
 

Tom Sawyer

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Do whatever you want. It's your house.

That's the advice you wanted isn't it?

Transitions glues aren't legal anywhere, not even Canada but your friend of a friend knows better right?

SDR isn't legal as the building drain either but you can argue that too if you want. It is legal outside the foundation, not within. Even in Canada but who cares, it's been there for 15 years so it must be ok.

I am quite familiar with Canada's red seal code BTw but by all means, carry on.
 

khedrei

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I only mentioned friend of a friend to clarify that I have a connection with him. He isn't some fly by night plumber I found at the hardware store. He has done work for me before, and I actually know that he has 15 years of experience rather than someone saying they have experience with no way to actually verify it. Why would he lie to me? And how would the current transition joints on my house, and many other houses passed inspection if those transition cements are not legal.

He said they are legal in the OBC and the National Building Code.

The advice I was looking for was regarding venting. You guys wanted to get into the argument about the pipe, and then eventually transition cement. There are mixed reviews all over internet about it with plumbers in the US and Canada claiming it is both legal, and illegal where they work. Kind of hard to know who is right.

Everyone seems to have a different opinion.

Seeing as you are the plumbers, and have the recources that I don't, and are having a hard time being wrong, can you link me to some information in the Ontario Building Code that says that SDR 35 pipe is not legal under a home, and that using a transition cement is also not legal. That is, since you are so familiar with the rules in Canada and specifically Ontario.

Thanks.
 

hj

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What is minimum code, what is legal, and what you SHOULD do are three different things. Even where the green pipe is legal, I would not use it because I have had to replace too many lines which collapsed from the weight of the ground covering them, and they were not buried very deep either, if that was going to be your next statement. as previously stated, since it is YOUR house you can do anything you want to with it, but since you asked our advice, we gave it to you. And, I have 65 years experience compared to his 15.
 

Tom Sawyer

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65, my word HJ, you is ancient. I've only got 42 years under my belt but hey, what do we know lol. Yep, it's his house and he can pretty much do whatever he wants. Me, I like to build on solid ground but that's just me. There's plenty of hackers out there that would rather hack stuff in and hope for the best. All you can do is wait for the eventual post saying the line won't drain because the SDR is crushed or the elbow fell off the pipe. Lol. Just to be fair though, I have run across a few localities that allowed the transition glue but never the SDR. Personally, knowing the chemistry of PVC and ABS though I wouldn't trust the glue. PVC and ABS melt at different rates so the transition glue isn't really a solvent weld as much as it's a glue filler.
 

FullySprinklered

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Excluding me, you've got some of the best people advising you on your project that this site has to offer. They have much knowledge and multiple decades of real experience in the plumbing trade. Understand that day-to-day hands-on experience in the trade includes interacting with low-life people like customers, building contractors, and other tradesmen. I'm not going to mention the idiots down at the supply house, nor will I mention anything at all about sun, wind, rain, sleet, snow, mud, interior decorators, and other soul-destroying issues relating to plumbing as a job.
Sometimes you get stuck with a turkey. Sometimes you have to decide if it's worth it or not to go back to square one and bring something up to current standards. I spent four years remodeling an 1897 farmhouse that was built cheap originally. It didn't make sense to tear it down and put new studs on 16" centers instead of the existing double rough-sawn studs on 30" centers. I had to take what was there and make it work.
I will say that most of the experienced people on here assume that everyone posting here has an unlimited supply of money. I don't think that way. Most of the kids in my class in school were on free lunch, grade 1 through 7. I just don't think that way. I do think that things should be done right the first time; it's better for the next guy down the line, and makes for a better, longer-lasting install.
That being said, it's still your house.
 

Tom Sawyer

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If you don't have an unlimited supply of money, your first course of action should be to acquire one.
 

khedrei

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HJ, you are absolutely right that minimum code, legal, and what you should do are all different things. Well, legal and code kind of fit in together no?... Anyway I know what you mean, and that is exactly my point, and was my trouble with some of the advice that came in from the start. I asked for advice on venting, and I was told that all these things are illegal. That is clearly not the case. For experienced people like yourself, and Tom Sawyer to come here telling someone like me that these things are illegal when in fact that are not, but just something you would not recommend, isn't exactly a great way to give advice. There are plenty of people who would start to panic thinking that everything they have is wrong.

Now that things are a bit more clarified, I completely understand that this is something that YOU would not RECOMMEND. And I fully appreciate the advice. I will be putting in the best quality drain system that I can, and am not a hack. I have done complete renovations on two of my own houses myself, hired people for jobs that I can't do, and get advice when I am not sure of something. That is why I came here. I am certainly not ripping out a concrete floor in a finished basement when the plumbing works properly and the pipe I have does meet the code. That whole unlimited supply of money thing and all...

I also wasn't trying to compare numbers of years of experience with any of you either. While the number does mean something, it's not everything, and if you were a reputable plumber which I believe you are, I wouldn't care if you had 10 years experience, or 100.

That being said, interestingly enough, Home Depot, and Lowes do not sell schedule 40 pipe or fittings. In fact they don't sell any PVC DWV pipe or fittings aside from the 4 inch or 3 inch SDR35. In fact, I am not sure I can get schedule 40 PVC to do the entire bathroom anywhere. Everything at the big box stores is ABS. The system for DWV at the plumbing wholesale supplier here is the LRS-25 (grey) in which I can get all the pipes and fittings to do a bathroom. I think it is relatively new, but I am not sure. I suppose that would be why a transition cement is required when going to the ABS that is in every single home here. Do you guys have experience with that type of PVC.

Another note regarding the cement, I have read studies that were done on multiple joints done with ABS cement, PVC cement primed, not primed, and Transition cement. Of course, none of this is official, and I will always use the proper cement, but with hordes of deliberate manual abuse with hammers, none of the joints failed. That included PVC to PVC using ABS cement. The pipes broke where they met the fitting, but the joints remained intact.
 
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