Need advice: Relocating well pressure tank

[DrS1]

Hi all, I am in need of some advice and I was hoping someone in the forum might be able to help.

I am trying to finish off a corner of my basement, but the well supply line (leading from a submersible pump) and a 20 gallon pressure tank are in the way. The rest of the house equipment is in an area about 20 feet away (whole house filter, water softener, hot water tank, etc.)

I'm looking for advice on whether it is an option to relocate the tank and pressure switch, and route the supply around the perimeter of the wall. This eventually may be hidden by studs and drywall. I have a couple of questions:

1. What are my options to extend the supply line?
   • Is polyethylene allowable inside the house?
   • Are barb fittings allowed to be behind drywall?
   • What size pipe should I use? Existing is 1" poly to the tank (with a couple of elbow fittings), and 3/4 copper from the tank to the filter / water softener.
   • If I can't continue the poly, what other pipe options would be advisable (schedule 80, CPVC, PEX, Copper?)
2. Are there any other issues with having the pressure tank 20 feet from where the supply enters the basement?

Just looking for options. The obvious one is to build a cabinet or something to hide the pressure tank, but it sweats and it seems like doing this might be asking for mildew issues. It would make this area much more usable if I could move the pressure tank.

Thanks in advance for any help!
DS

 

[Cacher_Chick]

Copper, CPVC, and PEX are approved for use inside the structure. Because PEX and CPVC have a smaller inside diameter than the equivalent copper size, it is common to go one size larger when using those materials.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Reach4]

You should consider a bigger pressure tank. Your 22 gallon tank would be matched to about a 5 GPM pump. See http://www.amtrol.com/media/documents/wellxtrol/MC7025_04_14_WXTsizingCard.pdf for some size information. Well-X-Trol is the top brand, but you may not need the best.

The path between the pressure tank and the pump should not have a filter in line, but if you tee off before the pressure tank, you could have a filter in that/those line/lines. The deal is that if the filter element clogs, you want the pressure switch at the pressure tank to shut the pump off.

2. Are there any other issues with having the pressure tank 20 feet from where the supply enters the basement?​

It important to have the pressure switch at the pressure tank.

Regarding regular poly or PVC inside the house, I don't know where they draw the line. Can the poly come into the basement 1 inch? 1 foot? More? Can plumbing around the pressure tank be PVC rather than the types that cacher_chick named?

Edit: Also, if you are going to finish your basement, I suggest you get a good dehumidifier. I like my Frigidaire. If you have realtime rates, consider putting it on a timer to keep it off during expected peak times... a few hours around 4PM in the summer. They do draw considerable power.

 

[WorthFlorida]

I would worry that a pipe running around the basement will also sweat. But the location of the water supply from a submersible pumps has no impact on the system. If your well was twenty feet further away from the home it would have no impact. If you start adding a lot of elbows there could be a degradation of flow. CPVC or PEX would sweat less than copper. Read what Cacher_chick states what is approved for inside the structure.

 

[Valveman]

Like Reach said that tank is probably way too small anyway. If you add a Cycle Stop Valve you can switch to an even smaller tank like a 4.5 gallon size. The smaller tank would take up much less space, sweat less, and the CSV would supply constant pressure to the house, which is much stronger than when the pump is continually cycling on and off as it is now.

 

[DrS1]

Like Reach said that tank is probably way too small anyway. If you add a Cycle Stop Valve you can switch to an even smaller tank like a 4.5 gallon size. The smaller tank would take up much less space, sweat less, and the CSV would supply constant pressure to the house, which is much stronger than when the pump is continually cycling on and off as it is now.

Thanks for the info! I was not aware of Cycle Stop Valves and was starting to price out larger tanks. I'm still leaning toward relocating my tank, but it sounds like with the introduction of a CSV I can reuse the tank I have and get a more constant pressure.

 

[Valveman]

Thanks for the info! I was not aware of Cycle Stop Valves and was starting to price out larger tanks. I'm still leaning toward relocating my tank, but it sounds like with the introduction of a CSV I can reuse the tank I have and get a more constant pressure.

Yes the CSV even works with a 4.5 gallon size tank, so the 20 gallon is plenty large enough. The smaller the tank, the more constant the pressure. Big pressure tanks have gone the way of the Dodo bird. There are much better ways to control a pump these days.

 

[Cacher_Chick]

Seems to me that a 4.5 gallon tank would result in the pump cycling almost every time I flush my toilet or brush my teeth. Maybe not with the newer toilets.

 

[Valveman]

Seems to me that a 4.5 gallon tank would result in the pump cycling almost every time I flush my toilet or brush my teeth. Maybe not with the newer toilets.

The 4.5 gallon tank holds about 1 gallon of water. That usually handles hand washing and an ice maker. And the pump will cycle for each 1.6 gallon flush, as long as water is not already running somewhere else in the house like for the dishwasher or a shower in another part of the house. Usually people will use water in succession, like when you flush a toilet then start the shower, the pump stays on the whole time. If the washing machine is already filling, then there are no extra cycles for toilet flushes or anything, because the pump is already running. And even if you stand there and flush the toilet 100 times in a row, the pump just stays running until after the last flush.

Really the only way to make the pump cycle when using a CSV is to flush a toilet, wait 2 minutes and flush again. As long as water is used somewhere or anywhere in the house again before the toilet tank is refilled and then the pressure tank is refilled, which usually takes a couple of minutes, the pump stays running and does not cycle.

But even if you flush a toilet solely by itself 50 or 100 times a day, which is an excessive number, the CSV has already saved the pump so many cycles for long term uses of water like showers and sprinklers, that 50 cycles from toilet flushes is still less cycling than a system without a CSV.

 

[Cacher_Chick]

Your math does not work where I live. 2 people in the house with an average water use of 1-2 gallons every time we turn something on to flush, wash hands, or brush teeth. A 40 gallon tank results in less cycling under these conditions. There would be a few cycles reduced during showering.
Not to downplay the cycle stop valve if one has multiple people in a home or need for irrigation, but there are some places it is simply not going to result in any or much benefit.

 

[Valveman]

but the well supply line (leading from a submersible pump) and a 20 gallon pressure tank are in the way. DS

I have done the test and the math does work. The number of cycles per day is almost exactly the same when using a CSV and the small tank as when using a "properly sized" tank without a CSV, when used for house use only. Even just using the occasional garden hose puts the advantage greatly to the side of the CSV. But even when the number of cycles are the same the benefit of space and cost for the small tank are considerable, and the constant pressure from the CSV is a very noticeable improvement in pressure.

 

[MichaelSK]

Question for Valveman (have not heard from your company yet): I live in Florida, have water to air heat pump that uses 6.5 - 7 gal/min, two adults (occasional guests) two bathrooms, irrigate 15,000ft2 yard and garden - The well: 110' ,90' casing, static water level ~ 55', water intake on pump 55'. We installed a Gould 1hp in 1989 that worked well for 17 years with a pressure tank with 10.7gal drawdown (three kids, two dogs) and water-to-air. Now need a new pump (don't seem to make pumps like they used to....sigh). What are your thoughts (other comments welcome)? An additional well parameter: the well casing is iron vs. PVC. When we pulled the recent pump to inspect it, there were flakes of casing on top of the pump, none appeared to have gone through the screen. I have no way to evaluate the flaking (no knowledge/experience). IMHO, it seems the act of removing the pump would break loose otherwise stable Fe flakes....? The well guy wants to sell me a new well and Gould variable speed pump for $8,000! I said, "let me find a pump that handles dirty water or one that can have the pump end easily replaced." I asked him about the CSV, he stated that he would not recommend it in part because the Fe flakes. Truthfully, I didn't think there were that many.....

 

[Valveman]

Don't use the CSV125 valves if you have debris in the water. But the CSV1A will handle it just fine. I'll bet the well guy would love to sell you an $8,000 VFD system. But a $200 CSV1A will deliver constant pressure the same as any VFD, it will work with any pump you choose, and it will make even a cheaply constructed pumps last longer than normal.

Well guys love to sell those expensive and short lived VFD systems to their customers, but most pump installers have gone back to the old reliable, single phase pump systems in their own homes.

 

[MichaelSK]

You indicated that the pump-end design and materials has little impact on well performance with the CSV? Have you evaluated the residential-sized CSV applications with various pump designs e.g. fixed stack vs. floating, number of impellers/diffusors - stages, etc.? After reviewing my parameters (the static water level is actually around 40') what pump-end size and motor horsepower would you suggest?

 

[Valveman]

My favorite would be a 10S07-12 Grundfos. It has Stainless Steel impellers in a floating stack, with a good drop in horsepower.

 

[MichaelSK]

thanks Cary