Need Advice Choosing the right Toto Seat and Toto Toilets

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Michele Romeo

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Thanks to Terry for the very useful advice I've gleaned from reading through the threads on this forum and for all who post here to contribute. This is my first post and I'm hoping for advice that will help me sort out toilet seats for Toto Toilets.

To set context for my inquiry, my husband and I are at the start of having a home built. We will have four toilets in this home. Three in baths associated with bedrooms and one in a powder room.

We are fans of Toto toilets and plan to use those in this house.

As design goes, we're leaning to the Soiree one piece toilet for our powder bath. We particularly like the #214 seat, the Soiree seat, that comes with it. It seems less countoured to us than the #114 toilet that comes with some other one piece toilets, like the Ultramax II. So my first question is related to the toilet seats and although I looked at the info on Toto's web site, I'm not sure I can figure this out so thought I'd ask here.

Specifically, is the Soiree seat in fact a 'flatter' design, not the lid but the seat, than the 114 (elongated) seat? Also, in looking at the Guinevere seat, the 224, which we cannot see in person (no showroom in our area shows more than two Toto toilets and this is not one), is that seat more countured than the 214? It seems so in photos. We are not fans of the countour in the 114 seat and are trying to determine if 224 is more like 214 or 114 in that regard.

Now to the questions about toilet selections for the bathrooms associated with bedrooms. In everything is connected to everything else mode, this also ties in to the earlier question about seats.

Design issues always play a part in these decisions, but we are function over form types. And in that regard the Universal Height (I note some here refer to this as ADA height but I think Toto uses Universal Height as marketing term) is the issue for both the master bathroom and at least one of the two guest room baths.

I am 5'4" tall. My legs are short. I have adult female relatives who are short, including a young adult niece who is only 5'0 who I factor into the equation on the discomfort of too high toilets where one feels like Edith Ann when feet dont' touch the ground. Not to mention the ergonomic problems associated with that. For a good piece written by an OT on that issue, I offer the link here and hope it is OK to post it. https://empowerability.wordpress.com/2013/03/07/are-you-comfort-able-on-your-toilet/

The irony is I also have MS and have had it for decades now. My mobilty is signifcantly impaired so one might think I am a person for whom those higher toilets would fit, the ADA compliance height and all, but as the OT points out in that article, they are not right for all people. So it seems they are not right for me. I learned this as my parents recently installed Drake IIs in all of their bathrooms a few months ago and they were just a bit too high for me and I found the 114 seats on them supremely uncomfortable. My husband said ditto to that last piece.

We thought we might use the Drake II in one of our guest baths but with the 214 (Soiree) seat which apparently is a seat option that fits the toilet. Has anyone had experience with that combintion for comfort of that seat on that toilet?

In the master and one of the guest rooms we thought we might use the Ultramax 1.6 gallon toilet as it is one of the few that Toto still makes in standard height and it is the only standard height option that works for us from a design standpoint. But here's the rub...this Ultramax being a one piece comes with the 114 seat. Which means in addition to having a seat we don't want, we need to pay more to add a seat we do want. Even willing to bite that bullet, it turns out the 114 seat is the only one recommended by Toto to fit the Ultramax 1.6 gal unit. So the question also is, has anyone ever used a Soiree seat, a 214 seat on this Ultramax toilet and if so does that work for fit?

Thanks very much to any and all who manage to wade through this long post and who have expertise to offer!
 

Michele Romeo

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https://terrylove.com/pdf/cst744eg-specs.pdf How about the CST744S, and buy a seat separately? Elongated, height: 14-5/8 to the rim. It is not as dressy as the Soiree however.
It is a little shorter than Drake II. https://terrylove.com/pdf/cst474cefg-specs.pdf

Thanks for the reply Reach4. The Drake standard height model is one we considered among the limited number of standard height models Toto still makes. But it did not make the cut for us for design reasons. Even had it passed design muster, just as in the standard height Ultramax which did get through the design 'filer', the standard height, elongated front "old Drake" model also only lists seats 114 and 204 as options and both of those are the contoured seat design that we find uncomfortable.
 
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WJcandee

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You can use any Toto seat (or any standard elongated seat) with any of those bowls. That's the bottom line. Pick the one you want.

Universal Height in Toto-speak is just a nudge shorter than ADA Height. The ADA-height toilets were among other things designed to be used in a public restroom that requires an ADA-height toilet. Older models get called ADA Height, newer ones Universal Height. It's basically just marketing, but that's the difference. You can make the Universal Height ones appropriate for ADA-requirements with a seat of a certain thickness.

The SS114 has been redesigned at least once, so what it is today is a little different than what it was before. The older one was more molded; the current one is flatter. If you're concerned about wasting a perfectly good seat that comes with your one-piece toilets, just sell it on Ebay and get the seat you want.

Let us know how it goes!!
 

Reach4

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I like my Bemis slow close Sta-tite seat, but my sense of style is minimal. The surface is not sculpted out. This conventional seat is suitable for toilets like my Vespin II where the toilet seat bolts do not go into blind holes (you can reach the underside of the bolts). For the Soiree and others with the full skirt, you will need something like the fasteners that come with the Toto seats. But since you have preferred seat profiles, widening your seat selection might be worthwhile. If you can reach the bolt bottoms, you can select seats from a wide choice.

The Aimes and Legato I think can use conventional seats, and they have little panels that cover the access area. So it looks fully skirted, but as you see in the pictures, the covers can be removed for access. https://terrylove.com/forums/index....toilet-review-and-pictures.56203/#post-415092 However they come with seats, so that would not be a good match for somebody who wanted a different seat.

AFAIK, Toto does not make a standard height skirted toilet. OK... I am not sure that the Neorest toilets are so tall-- I cannot follow the spec. http://assets.totousa.com/product-files/SS-00633_MS982CUMG.pdf is an example where it looks like the rim is 15 inches, but I don't know if the seat is extra thick. They are much more expensive than alternatives.

While you are thinking about seats, how about a bidet seat? A nice electric Toto Washlet would class up any toilet and people may not notice that your toilet does not have a skirt. And it is functional. There are cheaper non-powered options, but they will not be classy.
 

Michele Romeo

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You can use any Toto seat (or any standard elongated seat) with any of those bowls. That's the bottom line. Pick the one you want.

Universal Height in Toto-speak is just a nudge shorter than ADA Height. The ADA-height toilets were among other things designed to be used in a public restroom that requires an ADA-height toilet. Older models get called ADA Height, newer ones Universal Height. It's basically just marketing, but that's the difference. You can make the Universal Height ones appropriate for ADA-requirements with a seat of a certain thickness.

The SS114 has been redesigned at least once, so what it is today is a little different than what it was before. The older one was more molded; the current one is flatter. If you're concerned about wasting a perfectly good seat that comes with your one-piece toilets, just sell it on Ebay and get the seat you want.

Let us know how it goes!!

Thanks for the thoughts wjcandee! FYI, the Toto tech assist folks told me that the while I could put the 214 seat on the Ultramax standard height elogated model, the seat would overhang about 1/4". Looking at the dimensional drawings on their site for both the 214 Soiree seat and the Ultramax elongated, I can see that would be so if drawings are accurate. So likely not all seats fit the toilet exactly as they should. The bolt widths are the same on all models, so one could get them on there. But the width and length of the 214 are both just a bit longer than the 114 that comes with the Ultramax and it seems the overhang by a bit would for sure happen, as the tech assist guy suggested.

To the ADA v Universal Height issue, here is more than you likely want to know. ;-) Prior to the 2010 ADA standards upgrade, I think any toilet that wanted ADA compliance muster had to have bowl height of 16 1/2". I think I got that dimension right. But the OT's summary I linked before does get that detail exactly right, so refer to hers if mine is wrong. Then of course there was the top of the seat range reference to pass muster. But the dimension of bowl height was a fixed one. So companies like American Standard or Kohler or even Toto that made toilets that were say 16 1/8" to the rim couldn't call them ADA compliant if that dimension wasn't exactly right. Keep in mind the ADA is a federal civil rights law and the standards with absolute dimensions were absolute for being able to advertise as in compliance.

Time marches on and in 2006 or so the standards started the federal NPRM process to update them. Keep in mind they were passed in 1990 as part of a process of almost a decade that included all kinds of experts and there was lots of learning on the way.

In the interim one might see standard height, comfort height or right height options advertised in the marketplace that were simply maybe 1/8" off on bowl height to be able to advertise themselves as ADA compliant. I owned a couple of those right height or comfort height toilets in American Standard a dozen years ago. Then there was a small number of mostly ugly offerings marketed as ADA compliant.

Time continuing the march. the introduction of ADA standards into the world around us started to make folks of all levels of physical ability understand that access which worked for everyone, universal access, had many benefits. Wider door widths. Bigger toilet stalls. Higher toilets. Curb less, walk in showers. There used to be a big, bad stigma on a product marked ADA compliant because people would think "UGH...institutional" because largely those options were. So partly as matter of marketing strategy too, things started to get advertised as universally accessible, or all ages friendly, or age in place ready and so on when in general they were meeting ADA standards but didnt want to necessarily advertise with that negative connotation. As a matter of fact, in everything is connected mode, I think I read a post here dated a couple of years back where a guy was in a bicycle accident and now had trouble as he was healing getting up and down off a standard height toilet so was looking to install universal height commode in his home and I think referenced them as ADA height.

So in lots of places these days, the stigma of being ADA compliant is largely going away as people think about the universal access designation. Like Toto's Universal Height toilets. Which, ironically, are too high for me although I do have disability due to MS issues. But those toilets all meet the standard to call themselves ADA compliant under the current rules, even before a seat gets added..

So back to the ADA piece, in 2010 after four years of process, the ADA standards got up graded a bit and most of those changes took place in roughly early 2012. As relates to plumbing, for example, it used to be a toilet in a space required to be ADA compliant had to be exactly 16" or 18" on center. I can't recall which one of those applied. But the new standards provide a range there, that is between 16" and 18" on center.

The same thing seems to have happened with the height to the top of the bowl to call it ADA compliant because now manufacturers like Toto making 16 1/8" to top of bowl commodes may call them ADA compliant. They were always called Universal height but now they may also designate them as meeting ADA. I think you'll still find a few older toilets in Toto and other manufacturer's offerings that designate ADA compliant, in particular for commercial applications since the ADA applies there but it does not, of course, to private homes. It does, however, to commercial multi family structures of four or more sharing a single roof with two story townhouses excepted.

Then of course, the standard applies to what the actually seating height range needs to be for the seated height. But the height to the top of the bowl is also a part of that standard.

IF the Soiree seat fit on that Ultramax Standard Height toilet, I'd be a happy woman. ;-) But it seems that seat over hangs just a bit and while it wouldn't impact function, even my decidedly unpicky about form husband said he that would look too funky. ;)
 

Michele Romeo

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I like my Bemis slow close Sta-tite seat, but my sense of style is minimal. The surface is not sculpted out. This conventional seat is suitable for toilets like my Vespin II where the toilet seat bolts do not go into blind holes (you can reach the underside of the bolts). For the Soiree and others with the full skirt, you will need something like the fasteners that come with the Toto seats. But since you have preferred seat profiles, widening your seat selection might be worthwhile. If you can reach the bolt bottoms, you can select seats from a wide choice.

The Aimes and Legato I think can use conventional seats, and they have little panels that cover the access area. So it looks fully skirted, but as you see in the pictures, the covers can be removed for access. https://terrylove.com/forums/index....toilet-review-and-pictures.56203/#post-415092 However they come with seats, so that would not be a good match for somebody who wanted a different seat.

AFAIK, Toto does not make a standard height skirted toilet. OK... I am not sure that the Neorest toilets are so tall-- I cannot follow the spec. http://assets.totousa.com/product-files/SS-00633_MS982CUMG.pdf is an example where it looks like the rim is 15 inches, but I don't know if the seat is extra thick. They are much more expensive than alternatives.

While you are thinking about seats, how about a bidet seat? A nice electric Toto Washlet would class up any toilet and people may not notice that your toilet does not have a skirt. And it is functional. There are cheaper non-powered options, but they will not be classy.

Hi Reach4! Yes, I know Toto doesn't make a skirted standard height toilet. But the only place I want a skirt for the commode is in the powder bath and the Soiree in Universal Height works splendidly as a choice for me there. On the seats issue, it looks like nearly all, or maybe all, of the Toto seats / commodes have the same bolt dimensions. The issues aren't with whether the seat will bolt on and off. The issues is some seats, like the Soiree, are 1/4" too long (or in some cases too wide) for the shape of the bowl. Even though the bowl is elongated and the seat is elongated, there are some elongated bowls a bit shorter or longer or wider or narrower. And that is where the "fit" of the seat on the bowl comes in. As example, the Soiree seat would bolt onto the Ultramax, but it is about 1/4" longer than the bowl. That kind of thing for form meets function is the rub. LOL..."nice" and washlet seems like an oxymoron to me. :) There's an example of different strokes for different folks for you, eh? But washlet sales have been far, make that FAR, slower to take off in the US than expected so it seems I'm not the only one. ;-)
 

WJcandee

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A 1/4" overhang is barely-perceptible in my view, particularly from the angles that most people look at a toilet. It certainly isn't a functional issue. If one is planning on taking a couple of side-view photos while on one's knees, well then yes, you will notice. Our Bemis seats may overhang our Drakes a bit, but it's not something anyone ever notices or comments on. It's just something I'm aware of because I installed the toilets. Really, just get the ones that are most comfortable for you.
 

Wallijonn

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I tried a Bemis seat, which, iirc, said it was 18.5" long, but which over hung the front of the Drake bowl by 1/2". I took it back to HD the next day and bought a Kohler seat and was able to get it to overhang by about 1/8"; the 9 and 3 o'clock positions also over hang by about 1/8" and the 7 and 5 o'clock positions under hang by about 1/8"; about 1/4" at the 7:30 and 4:30 positions. The Toto seat over hangs at the 7-8 and 4-5 o'clock positions by about 1/4" (probably closer to 3/16"). The 9 and 3 o'clock positions are even with the bowl.

Close is okay, the closer the better, but 1/2" is too much, imo.

It's surprising that someone hasn't made off-center-hole spacers to insert between the seat and the bowl. Maybe I'll make my own some day. The tapered plugs that screw in under the bowl are probably a bad idea from a centering perspective, although they are probably the most convenient.
 

Reach4

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My Bemis might overhang my Vespin II by 1/8 inch, which I think would be better than flush-- no pun intended.
 

JMac

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I tried a Bemis seat, which, iirc, said it was 18.5" long, but which over hung the front of the Drake bowl by 1/2". ...
It's surprising that someone hasn't made off-center-hole spacers to insert between the seat and the bowl. Maybe I'll make my own some day. The tapered plugs that screw in under the bowl are probably a bad idea from a centering perspective, although they are probably the most convenient.

You should also consider how the back of the seat opening matches up to the inside of the bowl. You make these offsets and the seat goes too far back, you may be looking at a bigger mess than you fixed.
I picked up a Bemis seat for my new DrakeII, and while it does overhang the front by a VERY small amount (1/8 - 1/4" maybe), it really isn't noticeable unless you are looking at it very closely and/or at an unusual angle.
 

Terry

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I must have missed this.
When people purchase from us, and they want to make a seat change, we just credit back the seat and put it back in stock.
I don't worry about it a bit. I just sell it with the next order that comes in.

If you found SS114's with the dish, they must have been very old. I haven't seen a dished SS114 in years. The recent ones, (last few years) are pretty flat. The ones with the dish were made in Canada.
However, that being said, any elongated seat will fit the elongated TOTO bowls.
You may be happier with the standard height 14-5/8" bowl of the CST744EG or the MS854114EG bowls.
E = CEFIONTECT bowl finish. You can also purchase those without the CEFIONTECT.

bemis-color-match-white.jpg
 
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Jadnashua

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What may confuse the issue with ADA and not, is that when dealing with a toilet, the flush lever must be on the side of the toilet facing the doorway, so the person in a wheelchair can reach it at the end. So, it's more than just seat height, and most manufacturers do not make tanks with the flush lever optionally on either side. But, depending on where it is installed, one of their comfort height units may qualify. That height is still lower than the common dining room chair, hassle is, you may often not have shoes on when using one. Not as big an issue in a powder room, unless you and your guests regularly remove your shoes when entering the house.
 
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