Need a pump very quickly

Discussion in 'Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog' started by alternety, Jul 18, 2014.

  1. alternety

    alternety Like an engineer

    Messages:
    671
    Location:
    Washington
    I have been trying to find a pump to replace my broken pressure pump. I need it very soon. If I do not have it installed by the end of next week I will have a really serious problem. I have not had a whole lot of success. Ferguson says it would have to be built in NY and would take 2 or 3 weeks.

    What I specifically want is a Goulds 25GBS1511J4. That translates to a 25GPM Stainless centrifugal, 1 1/2 HP single phase 60Hz, 120/240VAC. Their SS pumps have Silicon Carbide and probably Viton seals and parts.

    I am not a pump expert nor in the business and I just don't know the brands and specs and sources. Goulds was recommended as decent quality. Looking at the curves, this seemed to be the one I wanted. Any reliable brand is fine with me.

    For a permanent replacement I need the SS and about that flow rate. I run the system at 40/60 psi. And have two large pressure tanks. Input to the pump is from an external storage tank that is, at best, a foot above the pump inlet.

    If I can't get the specs I need, I could also use a temporary with a much lower capacity. Just so I could get it in before the end of next week. I would also take a cheap used one (that works, of course), or rent one, something.

    I am in the Burlington area.

    Can any of you help?
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2014
  2. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,495
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    I had one of those last week and it took me a week to get it. They are not a heavily stocked item. But the reason I was using that kind of pump was because it was working at a golf course at 90/110 PSI. That is way more pump than you need for 40/60 pressure, as it would probably destroy itself on upthrust.

    Get a J15S jet pump. You will have an easier time finding one, it will be much less expensive, and will work better and last longer at 40/60 pressure. Oh and BTW, a Cycle Stop Valve and small tank would work better than two big tanks, so even when they go bad, don't replace those big tanks.
  3. alternety

    alternety Like an engineer

    Messages:
    671
    Location:
    Washington
    I have always associated jet pumps with a direct well connection. I am, almost as we speak, researching this. You are saying that the centrifugal is a bad choice and I should look at the jet pump. I have a very narrow window here to decide. There is only one centrifugal in the country as far as I can see. If I don't order it; I am finished. A quick look at performance shows the J15S volume drops off more quickly at the 60psi level than the centrifugal pump.

    Could you please elaborate on your statements and/or point me to a reference source so I can evaluate the alternatives? I have to do this quickly.
  4. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,432
    Location:
    IL
    What is the source of the water? A tank at zero PSI, or an incoming pipe at some pressure? If it is an incoming pipe, the pump only "sees" the difference in pressure.
  5. alternety

    alternety Like an engineer

    Messages:
    671
    Location:
    Washington
    It is a zero psi in this configuration. An external tank that is maybe a foot above the suction inlet of the pump. What I need is to choose between centrifugal and jet. But particularly, what brand pump.
  6. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,432
    Location:
    IL
    I am not a pro. But if your tank would permit it, you could consider putting a submersible, as you would put into a casing, on its side in the tank. That would be put into a "flow inducer" which can easily be made from 4 inch drain PVC. The flow inducer gets the water to flow by the motor to keep the motor cool. Those are high-sales-volume pumps, so they should be quickly available. You would want one with fewer stages, such as a 3/4 or 1 HP 25 GPM 4-inch submersible pump (maybe 6 stages). I think that such pumps are more efficient, so less HP should be sufficient.

    I remember more threads, but don't find too many at the moment.

    http://terrylove.com/forums/index.p...ible-pump-for-underground-storage-tank.50088/

    http://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?threads/submersible-pump-inducer-sleeve-help.55949/
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2014
  7. alternety

    alternety Like an engineer

    Messages:
    671
    Location:
    Washington
    I had actually considered that sort of configuration during initial design but chose not to do it. At this point it is not feasible. No way to get power there. Not to mention issues with coupling with existing piping from the tank. All underground.
  8. alternety

    alternety Like an engineer

    Messages:
    671
    Location:
    Washington
    Over the weekend, I have concluded that there is no way I can get a pump in by my deadline. I actually found a pump, but even over nighting it I did not feel comfortable.

    I am implementing plan B. I am using the well pump to directly feed the house. Hose from well to pipe in yard for gardening water. That feeds the house raw water system. I am going to buy a new high quality hose. Rewired pressure switch to the well pump control. Relatively low volume; but it will work for a while. My three pressure tanks help.
  9. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,495
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    Get a jet pump for a booster. It should be much less expensive and easier to find.


    Actually a well pump just sees 3 big pressure tanks as an extra load. Think about what happens when your pressure is sitting at 42 PSI since the last time you used water. Those 3 tanks (each holds 25 gallons) hold 75 gallons of water when the pressure is at 60 PSI. But when the pressure is at 42 PSI, they only have 7 gallons of water between them. Now you decide to use 100 gallons for a couple of showers or something. The 7 gallons in the tanks is quickly used up and the pump is started. Now not only does the well have to supply 100 gallons for you to use, but it must produce another 75 gallons to fill the tanks to 60 PSI so the pump can shut off. If your low producing well has less than 168 gallons of down hole storage, your pump will run dry before the pressure tanks are refilled.

    This is the scenario that keeps a low pressure cut off switch from being a good option to protect from pumping the well dry. You stopped using water before the well went dry, so the pressure will not drop for the low pressure switch to shut off the pump. The well is pumped dry, so the pressure tanks will also not fill to 60 PSI so the switch can shut off the pump. Unless you have a Dry Well Protector like the Cycle Sensor that looks at amps, you will burn up the pump.

    I doubt your well has more than 168 gallons of down hole storage, or you would probably not have a storage tank/booster pump to start with. A low producing well is safer with a small tank than a large pressure tank.
    LLigetfa likes this.
  10. alternety

    alternety Like an engineer

    Messages:
    671
    Location:
    Washington
    First of all, the well pump pressurizing the house is simply and emergency configuration while I replace the in-house pressure pump. No performance/storage/pressure issues are relevant as soon as the system is repaired.

    The well has a low water detector down at the pump. And it is a smart controller. When we drilled it, the well could supply about 3 gpm. No careful measurement over a long period was done. I forget what the test period was. Might even have been 1 hour. But the pump has been happy bringing up water for many hours at a time.

    Draw down of 75 gallon is about right. But a bit complicated. It is 75 for filtered water; 50 for other water (isolated by check valves). Buffering is about as specified by the manufacturer of the tanks for the specified pump performance regarding run times for the filtered use. And in severe demand, the pump can run continuously.

    The well pump simply does not produce enough water to keep up when watering the plants. It can deliver very high pressures, but that is really not of interest. I believe it could easily exceed the pressure capability of parts of the water system. I once (by accident) blew apart a decent hose.

    The point with the system when it is working, is that the centrifugal can keep up with things. And usually stay within the 40/60 range while maintaining a reasonable on/off cycle. That pump has a fairly steep curve and can pretty much maintain flow rates within the 40/60 range. I understand the relationship of draw down to pressure. I have never bothered to experiment with lower pressure ranges because I like the results of 40/60. I have always used that when I have had a well. While a kitchen faucet may be OK at lower pressures, watering hoses are not.

    The centrifugal pump is protected by redundant float switches in the bulk storage tank. I only have 1500 gallons. I really want to make that much larger. I live in a forest. The selected pump can provide a reasonable flow if one needs to wet down a house. I am contemplating a very large tank to primarily collect rainwater from about 3500 sq ft of runoff area and use that for irrigation and fire. I can isolate the filtration system from the raw water source in such conditions. The filter will not remove toxic chemicals (there is a carbon filter though), but it will filter any pathogen (down to viruses).

    There are multiple objectives considered as part of the system. The overall system design and implementation objectives to not lend themselves well to dissection and addressing components in isolation.
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2014
  11. john c

    john c New Member

    Messages:
    25
    Location:
    SC
    I'm also curious what the source of the water is as, how far down, and what size well heads? Where I live it works best to have a 1 1/4' well head for for each 1/4 horse power of pump. I went from 4-5 GPM to 18 GPM just by adding three more well heads with a 1 hp Goulds shallow well pump, but the surface water is only 5' down. That's probably tricky to figure out depending on how far down it is and I don't know anything about submersible pumps.

    The CSV would defiantly work for watering your yard. Any time I use more than 2 GPM the pump doesn't cycle. I could probably adjust the pressure switch to get it down to 1 GPM but no need.

    Good luck! I know how stressful figuring out these pumps can be!
  12. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,495
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    If you were running 60/80 I could understand the reason for that type of pump. The jet pump can do 25 GPM at 50 PSI where the pump you have does 32 GPM at 50 PSI, but if the pump is “cycling reasonably”, which I consider an oxymoron, you are not using 32 GPM anyway. The jet pump would just be less expensive and last longer because it would not be cycling as much.

    There are always multiple objectives to consider. The overall system design is a conglomeration of components working in isolation. Each component must be considered separately to make the overall system function adequately.

    Those multi-stage centrifugal pumps with a jet pump motor are needed in some high head application. But I do not believe they last nearly as long as a regular jet pump.

    A jet pump only has one impeller, and it doesn’t create much down thrust. The impeller in a jet pump actually pulls on the motor shaft, which makes the bearing closest to the pump work as a down thrust bearing.

    The impellers in a multistage centrifugal pump work in reverse to the jet pump, and actually push on the motor shaft. This makes the bearing farthest away from the pump work as the down thrust bearing. And I do not believe this bearing is designed to handle the extra down thrust of a multi-stage centrifugal, which is why they don’t last as long.

    You would be better off with a submersible pump placed inside the storage tank, as they are designed to handle the extra down thrust of a multistage pump.

    But it will make the pump manufacturer happy if you think you got a “reasonable life” from the last pump and you purchase another one just like it.
  13. alternety

    alternety Like an engineer

    Messages:
    671
    Location:
    Washington
    Plan B is working nicely. Now I can take my time to replace the main pump.

    The old pump did not wear out. I broke it. While working on a new control system, I let it run dry. I am replacing it because it is unique enough to be difficult for local repair if I am dead. It runs on 180VDC.
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