Need a new softener and I need your advice!

Discussion in 'Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r' started by ElderBombadil, Dec 11, 2010.

  1. ElderBombadil

    ElderBombadil New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    MN
    I currently have a Kenmoore cabinet softener, I think its 48,000 grain, its been going strong for 12 years but its just not cutting it any more, I had been using resup in it and have had it regenerating every night for years (wait for it you understand in a sec). The well room is smaller and so is my budget, my water specs before it went through the softener

    Hardness 12.2 gpg
    Manganese .063 PPM
    PH 7.7
    Chloride 0 ppm
    Iron 8.32 ppm (ferrous)
    Barium .13 ppm

    Water after softener digested
    Hardness 0
    Manganese 0 ppm
    PH 6.7
    Chloride 0
    Iron .07 ppm
    Barium 0ppm

    The softener calculators say I would use approx 13,500 grains a day.

    So as you can see this Kenmoore softener was getting most of that iron out, granted I had to regenerate every night and use resup. I am guessing that the resin is toast. So I am looking for a new softener to replace this one. My budget is about $1000.00 and I am DIY on most everything, from auto repair, I can build PCs and run networks, hunt, and butcher etc... you get the point.

    I was wondering if a Prosoft CS1 EE head with a 8% resin and a KPF 85 media filter would do the trick or what do you guys have in mind?

    All your help is really appreciated.
  2. Akpsdvan

    Akpsdvan In the Trades

    Messages:
    1,480
    Location:
    Alaska
    Now here is an idea..
    If you where to remove the current tank and valve .. you could re use the brine tank as the new brine tank.. with a different float assembly say the fleck 2310 float assembly.
    If you would like to reuse the tank with new media there is adaptor out there that can take the sears tank with that lock ring and a screw on type valve like one of the Flecks..
    Now it might not win a beauty contest but it wil work great..
  3. ElderBombadil

    ElderBombadil New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    MN
    I would like to start fresh with a new unit, that I can keep running for the next 40 years.
  4. Akpsdvan

    Akpsdvan In the Trades

    Messages:
    1,480
    Location:
    Alaska
    Just about any of the Fleck valves would do as many of the ones that I work on that are fleck can be up to 15+ years and some going back even more.
    There are still a few Fleck 1500 around and there are still parts for them as they use parts that are found on 2510 , 2750.
    Non digital is good way to go as it will be easier to work on and get parts for.
  5. ElderBombadil

    ElderBombadil New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    MN
    How about this, I found a guy local that is refurbishing Fleck 5600 ecominders he wants around $350 at that price I could purchase 2 then take the resin out of one and replace it it with Clack Brim resin and use it as a iron filter. That would fit my budget and should deal with the iron. The question is how to I figure out how much Brim Resin I need.
  6. Akpsdvan

    Akpsdvan In the Trades

    Messages:
    1,480
    Location:
    Alaska
    The amount of Birm is more on flow rates, what would be the needed flow rate for inside the house?
    Also what is the Dissolved Oxygen for the water to be treated?
    DO needs to be at least 15% and the ph would have to come up because birm needs at the low end 6.8.. now yours at 6.7 it may work, but it might not.
    If the DO is not 15% then you will need to inject air to bring that oxygen level up.

    Has the softener worked in the past? (when it was new)
  7. ElderBombadil

    ElderBombadil New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    MN
    Well thats were it gets a bit odd, I tryed a Waterboss 900if (iron filter/ Greensand/potassium pergnate) it did not do a dang thing, never took any iron out still add the same issues. Took it back and got my money back then a friend mentioned resup and I started using that in the water softener and that did the trick. Makes me wonder if I don't have enough DO to do the job, but if thats the case why would the softener work when the iron filter did not?
  8. Akpsdvan

    Akpsdvan In the Trades

    Messages:
    1,480
    Location:
    Alaska
    Water boss iron filter? Oh please......... the little brother to the Water Max from Hague.... If all that you have is hard city water they will work, but put in iron of any thing over 2ppm and kiss it good by.. and that part of knowage is from working with the Max 15 years ago and what it could and could not do in the field.

    If you are in the northern part of Minn... then here is some thing to try and a high shot at working like it does here in Alaska..
    1.5 cubic foot of resin... turbolator...10X47 tank.no gravel..no upper basket and the 2510 fleck meter valve..
    It is the set up that has worked on more wells than I can count.
    There was a 1.5 cubic or 48kgrain unit that cleaned once a day and the water?
    35ppm iron
    20 grains of hardness
    And the system even worked at taking out the H2S for 4 months, then add chlorine bleach in the brine tank and it was good for another 4 months.. then after 8 years the resin had to be replaced... cost on resin at the time under 200.00
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2010
  9. ElderBombadil

    ElderBombadil New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    MN
    Are we talking fine resin like SST60?
  10. Akpsdvan

    Akpsdvan In the Trades

    Messages:
    1,480
    Location:
    Alaska
    SST60 is a good resin and will save a bit on the salt,, but really for most homes ... it is really not worth it..
  11. ElderBombadil

    ElderBombadil New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    MN
    what type of resin am I looking for? Also should I go with a 96,000 which is what the calculator says or can I go with a 48,000 grain? My Kenmoore is a 38,500 grain.
  12. Akpsdvan

    Akpsdvan In the Trades

    Messages:
    1,480
    Location:
    Alaska
    The challenge with what some say the 96k is that is the max salt load for the resin and that would be pushing 3 cubic foot of resin to the max.. and if your flow rate in the house is between 6-12gpm then that amount of resin is going to give problems because it it going to need 20+gpm for it work like it should.
    I would go with the 48k unit which is 1.5 cubic foot and with the eco salt setting will do 30k...
    Turbo with the side tube ending 12" from the top of the tank will turn over a 1cubic foot resin collum in 12 minutes at 2 gpm...
    some like to end that side tube to far down and it does not work right.
  13. ElderBombadil

    ElderBombadil New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    MN
    Got it so a 48k grain unit Fleck 2510 or a Fleck 5600sxt ( will have to regen every 2 days) with a turbolator and for resin use a 8% crosslink or a Fine mesh resin. Sound about right?
  14. Akpsdvan

    Akpsdvan In the Trades

    Messages:
    1,480
    Location:
    Alaska
    Sounds about right, remember NO upper basket.. and the turbo ending 12" from the top.
    Depending on the number of people, yes every 2-3 days would be about right.
    Now if you had more people then you can always up grade to a twin by changing the control to the 9100 and second tank just like the first one.. and that would add a day or two depending on the people and the buffer..
    Say the unit could go 1000 gallons before it needs to regen, there are 3 people in the house, 3 people on ave would use 180 gallons in a day so the meter would be at 800 gallons.
    The twin would have its meter at 900 gallons because it only needs 100 gallons for the cleaning or regen.. so over time that extra 100 gallons of use would add up.
  15. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    The downside of fine mesh is an increased pressure loss across the softener.

    SST-60 resin is the best to use for high iron water because it can not be iron fouled like regular or fine mesh resin because of the construction of the bead; iron can not get down into the middle of the bead.

    With your water there will be no salt saving by using SST60.

    Birm is not a resin, it is filter ag coated with manganese dioxide (IIRC).
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2010
  16. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    With you using 13,500 grains/day, the 3.0' unit will give you 60K per regeneration about every 4 days @ 18 lbs of salt where a 1.5' unit @ 30K will have to be regenerated every 2 days @ 15 lbs. Thereby the 1.5' will use much more salt and water than a 3.0' unit.

    You get a maximum K of capacity of 45K out of a 1.5 and 90K with a 3.0 cuft (both) @ 15 lbs/ft, not 48 and 96K.

    The 1.5' has a constant SFR of 12 gpm, the 3' has 20 gpm.

    You'll have to ask AK why he says the 3.0 needs 20+ gpm to work like it should; there is no such need. It means you can run 20 gpm through it and not suffer hard water bleed through. Exceed the SFR of the cu ft volume of resin and you get hard water through all softeners.

    If I were still in business I would suggest a Turbulator (can't use gravel) and no top basket (Turbulators have their own) and 3.0 ft of SST-60 (using a 1/3 cup of Iron Out every 4-6 weeks in 2 gals of water and a manual regeneration) with a valve that an handle a 3.0 cuft softener.

    The side tube on a Turbulator should be set 1-3" below the top of the resin bed (at rest) and usually comes preset that way for the tank you are using if you order the softener with a Turbulator.
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