Necessity of Vacuum Relief Valve - Not Pressure Relief Valve

Discussion in 'Water Heater Forum, Tanks' started by WillieK, Oct 23, 2012.

  1. none of you know what you are talking about

    The one picture of the blown up tank is from my store front window in Indianapolis...
    That tank and another one in the window are the only 2 water heaters I have ever seen
    that EXPLODED in the past 40 years......

    They are rare as hens teeth........
    they dont come along very often beause 99% of all of the t+p valves work correctly for decades....

    I still have not seen a legitimate picture of an imploded water heater that imploded natrually on its own.... because it is simply impossible to happen..
    I am still waiting for someone to post that picture of a real legitimate... in the field imploded heater......its going on over a year now...... so what gives here???


    The next water heater you have pictured has a problem with High Water Pressure
    and Thermal Expansion..... We see this a lot when a heater is in a closed loop system and the pressure has no where to go .....with no thermal expansion tank on it....

    here is a picture of a thermally expanded heater for your viewing pleasure..

    as you can see , the top of the fan motor is actually cracked from the inward pressure .
    of the union pipe nipples that were actually bent inwards due to THERMAL EXPANSION

    we took the top off to take a better look at the actual metal and its pretty amazeing that this heater did not split and blow up....

    Now Remember children, this did NOT IMPLODE.... it Thermally Expanded...



    If your state or region of the USA wishes to force you install a vaccuum relief
    valve on a water heater, then you better do it, no matter how stupid and absurd, or insane it totally is..... (like Obama care)

    All I am stateing is the obvious, they will leak and piss all over the place
    some day.....its only a matter of when......

    It would be wise to fugure out a way to install a overflow pipe to this vaccuum relief valve and into a drain....

    Odds are, you are gonna be named in a law-suit for the water damages it causes someday.

    I hope that your insurance comapny will pay for the huge $$ water damages is causes....

    please--just cover your ass



    [​IMG] [​IMG]


    Last edited: Oct 27, 2013
  2. Caduceus

    Caduceus Master Plumber

    Messages:
    136
    Location:
    Pittsburgh, PA
    First of all, if there is a failure of the thermostat where the tank continues to heat and there is adequate high pressure to expand the tank to rupture, the thermal expansion tank becomes just another casualty of the situation once the pressure exceeds 120 psi. Tanks are typically rated to 300 psi or more when new and even when aged will hold more pressure than the thermal expansion tank bladder. Most of the time plumbers who install TETs don't pressurize them to match the building pressure anyways and end up blowing the bladder within a few weeks or months rendering the TET useless from that point on. But that is a matter for another day.
    Second, I would simply like to yield to Mark and agree that there is no need for vacuum relief valves. I have finally been convinced that the scientific conspiracy that has existed for over a hundred years regarding vacuums on water heaters and storage tanks is just that...a conspiracy to sell a useless product.
    Two years ago when I removed the 30 gallon hot water tank from the new pizza shop (another installer put it in less than a year before) because it was crumpled and leaking, I should have taken pictures to prove that it never happened. The pressure was regulated to 55 psi and the thermal expansion tank was in proper adjustment, but the fact that the tank folded in on itself due to a vacuum is a total lie. When the jacket was removed and I called the local rep to ask about warranty he stopped out and immediately confirmed my suspicion of vacuum since there was not a VRV in place and sent a letter to the owner explaining that the warranty was void, but I guess that I should have saved the letter that never really existed either...maybe I should have taken a picture of the letter, but it would also be as valid as a picture of the Loch Ness monster.
    So just to be clear in case this post just gets 'skimmed over' and not read in detail, like so many other posts, vacuums do not exist and never have. Watts and the other manufacturers have conspired with the water heater industry to sell you a useless product (they even print it in their owners manuals!!! those ba$tards!!) and they only need to be installed where required by code because the code enforcers either don't know what they are doing or they have also sold out and get kickbacks from the VRV manufacturers.
    Okay, now that the issue has been put to rest let's get back out there and save the world one clogged toilet at a time!
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2013
  3. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,416
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    Here is some info from Watts

    In the city of Bellevue, they want these on second story electric water heaters.

    Sometimes when we are doing a leak repair in a home, we will loosen the cold water connection to the water heater to break the siphon.
  4. Caduceus

    Caduceus Master Plumber

    Messages:
    136
    Location:
    Pittsburgh, PA
    I guess you don't really get it, Terry.:rolleyes: I'm trying to help you find your way over here to the smart and simple side of the discussion:rolleyes: It has aready been confirmed that the vacuum relief valve companies made the valves and created a fictitious event that occurs in hot water tanks just to sell their useless product.:rolleyes: My book from the International Library of Technology (Copyrighted 1905) explaining the fundamentals of vacuums, as well as the thousands of other proven experiences for over one-hundred years, are all untrue:rolleyes: and engineers and plumbers who claim to have seen or experienced a vacuum in a tank are all liars.:rolleyes: C'mon, don't get suckered by plumbers' myths.:rolleyes:
  5. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,801
    Location:
    IL
    You are eloquent and lucid. :rolleyes:
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2013
  6. Last edited: Oct 27, 2013
  7. Caduceus

    Caduceus Master Plumber

    Messages:
    136
    Location:
    Pittsburgh, PA
    1."If your city needs you to install them, then by all means
    install them...." Only on tanks with side supplies. BTW, if you read thoroughly...which apparently you don't (you like to skim, then reply without enough info) tank manufacturers will require them on certain tanks to warranty the tank NO MATTER WHAT STATE YOU LIVE IN!! Duh...read some time.

    2."Our state seems to be leaning more towards the
    realm of common sense and has never forced this law down
    the plumbers throat yet..." Indiana recognizes the International Plumbing Code as it's Indiana Plumbing Code which under section 504 requires the use of vacuum relief valves on certain tanks, right? So, I guess your state IS forcing it down your throat, you just haven't been following the code.

    3. "probably because the odds of it happenning is less than
    someone hitting the power-ball twice in a month...." So, using your rational thinking, if something is not likely to occur then why bother protecting the people from it...like back siphoning poison into a water system is as rare as hitting the lottery so don't install backflow devices. I get it, protecting your opinion and your ego is more important than your customer's safety.

    4."Now as far as a conspiracy theory goes.....
    If Watts comes up with some
    lobbying money and spreads it around our state capitol and
    bribes enough politicians , I suppose that this law could come
    into affect some day...." Yup, too late for you, too...Indiana is also a victim of the same kickback scandal, you should complain to your local politicians for screwing you.

    5. "I would be willing to guess that is the case
    in your state...someone with a vested interest in selling
    the product got this joke passed"....It surprises me that somebody hasn't mentioned this conspiracy theory anywhere else...ever....relating to vacuum relief valves. It must be lonely being he only person who sees this happening and we are just a bunch of poor suckers who can't see the light.

    6. "if you actually see another imploded heater in your life time
    please post it here on the site.....
    I am sorry you did not have your camera with you
    when you came across big foot..." See you were just skimming again. Pay attention. It was the Loch Ness Monster that I referenced before. I have a beautiful picture of Bigfoot that I will be posting here shortly and it clearly shows him installing a vacuum relief valve on a water heater in Indiana...I know, I couldn't believe it either until I looked at the photo again.

    7. Earlier when you posted "Please inform me how my comments are a bit off.... I dont mind...." You actually DO mind, you were hoping for more details so that you could counter-point my comments. I don't have some deeply rooted insecurity where I have to carry a camera around to validate my thoughts and opinions about plumbing. Maybe you do, but don't try pushing this heavy "proof is in the photograph" bullcrap towards me and expect me to roll over and say "Sorry Mark, you're right, I don't have a photo. I must be dumm er-sumthin'"... because I won't roll over to such a closed-minded mentality. Good luck to your past and future customers, they're gonna need it.
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2013
  8. Caduceus

    Caduceus Master Plumber

    Messages:
    136
    Location:
    Pittsburgh, PA
    I tried to google an "imploded water heater " and their just aint one
    to be found on google...... please try it yourself and see what you come up with on the east coast...

    If it aint on google, then it probably dont exist...

    check it out.... What a proud moment for me....
    the 3 water heaters in my store front window are the only ones that came up on google for imploded water heaters...in the world!!!!.

    even google has it wrong....they are not imploded but mine were as
    close as google could find....

    . https://www.google.com/search?q=wate...w=1117&bih=804

    Wow. This is just proof as to how effed'-up your thinking is. If it ain't on Google it doesn't exist??? So if it is on Google then it must exist? Right? So I just Googled "unicorn" and "Bigfoot" and found pictures of both..THEY MUST THERFORE EXIST!! YAY!! UNICORNS!!
    No, wait...but then you said that Google has it wrong about YOUR heaters, so....oh, yeah Google has misinformation then, right. So, a faulted search engine that has misinformation, by your own statement, is the sole basis for your argument that something can't exist unless it's on Google? Are you freakin' serious or is this some sort of goof by a silly plumber?
    Hey, get this...you'll love it. I just tried to Google a friend of mine from the Navy and guess what. No hits on his name and no photos...he must not exist. Funny, I wonder what happened to him?:confused:
  9. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,416
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    I don't think a water heater can implode. I just did a copy paste from the Watts site.

    I have had water heaters siphon from the cold side, and yes we do crack the supply line sometimes so we can do our solder joints quicker. I don't have all day waiting for things to drain down.
  10. Obama the Plumber

    Obama the Plumber Plumber

    Messages:
    47
    Location:
    Washington DC
    Gigantopithecus

    The first Gigantopithecus remains described by an anthropologist were found in 1935 by Ralph von Koenigswald in an apothecary shop.
    Since then, relatively few fossils of Gigantopithecus have been recovered.

    Sittings of Bigfoot are rare, and so are imploded water heaters. That doesn't mean there are no Bigfoots though. And that doesn't mean that there aren't a few imploded water heaters. It's my guess that the two go hand in hand. Bigfoots will know when a water heater has imploded, and needing the minerals in the imploded water heaters, they can smell a long distance. No, I don't mean they smell so bad that you can smell them, it's that they can smell a long ways. So........They smell the imploded water heater, and they steal them. It's pretty obvious when you look at the evidence.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gigantopithecus
  11. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,416
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    http://seattletimes.com/html/outdoors/2022109878_bigfootcountryoutdoorsxml.html

    I hiked once with a fellow plumber that swears he saw a Bigfoot while in the mountains, in the area North of the Columbia River.
    I haven't. I have looked up from my campsite to see a Grizzly on the hillside above, looking at us.

  12. hey, I am with you on this one... Its like the big foot smells the heater and
    comes around and takes it before anyone can get a picture of it...

    or like the tooth fairey that comes in the night and gets the tooth and
    leaves a quarter under the pillow...

    I think I finally totally pissed off Caduceus....
    from the tone of his last two
    posts, I think he is about to implode.....

    and I want a picture of it...
  13. Caduceus

    Caduceus Master Plumber

    Messages:
    136
    Location:
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Again, you only skim across the posts. I'm actually having a good laugh about all of this. You're probably the most self destructive plumber I've met on internet forums and you actually go out in public and work in peoples homes and businesses. There is probably a long line of plumbers who have followed your work and made corrections that you don't even know about. Kinda shocking that you didn't respond to my statements from the earlier post. I guess I called you out and you just avoid it because you've run out of excuses. I kinda expected that, but just go ahead and keep on posting. It's interesting to see another "Master" plumber's ideas as to how plumbing should be. Even if it's wrong.


  14. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about
    In our state it is not necessary to install one and it is not
    required ......In fact , I dont think I have ever even seen one in this state or
    out in colorado either.

    No one is right or wrong here dear..:eek:
    we simply live in different parts of the usa.
    I will have to visit another forum I belong to and ask
    the plumbers on that site how many of them actually install
    them and get back to you on this subject...


    I think that this whole thread started because someone posted
    about how their plumber had installed this device on a new water heater
    and it flooded the hell out of them.....

    I stated that it was stupid and the plumber whom installed it ought to have
    provided some sort of catch drain for the device.. and I also stated that the person
    ought to make the plumber pay for all the extensive water damages....They claimed it was about $60,000. worth of damage ...


    I have noticed that You dont have very many posts on this forum and I wonder if you are the fellow that actually flooded out this guy and are here to defend your actions....??


    I only know that no one is gonna follow me around cleaning up messes
    I leave behind on water heaters I install, and I am not gonna have a $60,000 insurance claim for something as silly as this.....

    if you are installing them without some sort of safeguard to catch the spillage,
    I would say that your days are numbered before you are looking for a new insurance company
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2013
  15. Caduceus

    Caduceus Master Plumber

    Messages:
    136
    Location:
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Well, sweetheart, this reading words thing really seems to have escaped you. The first post is easy to find on page one, first post "My new water heater states: "Install vacuum relief in cold water inlet line as required by local codes". My inspector says I need one. I read on one of the old posts that you only need one if your water heater is on an upper floor or in the attic. Mine is in the attic. What is the purpose of a vacuum relief valve? What could possibly happen if I didn't install one - other than the inspector killing me?"
    The flood question was not directly related to the first posters issue, but again you have amazed me with your keen skills of observation since the poster with the flood was from Georgia and I live in Pittsburgh (that's PA for the geographically challenged). I don't travel that far for work or need to. And finally, let me ask you this...do you install tanks with provisions for leaking and spillage from any possible and potential part or connection to the tank? I will guess 'yes' is your answer, so you must think you are the only one who knows what they are doing, huh? I guess the laws of physics are different depending on where you live and thanks for informing me of that...I'm a better person for knowing now. It's also comforting to know that you judge a person's worth by how many posts are on a forum. Stop by some of the other forums and you may see me...not always by the same name, but mostly, and throw some of that arrogance around to plumbers who actually care about practicing their trade with skill and knowledge so that I can watch them deflate your ego. It would be fun, so come out and play. And just one more thing to remember...you started it.;)
  16. Started what??

    started what?? What did I start??

    You are the one with your panties all in a bind here...

    if your insurance company is willing to take a 60,000 hit like this
    than you really dont have a thing to worry about.. keep doing what
    you are doing... its no big issue to me...

    I have not stated that you were a bad plumber or anything about
    the quality of your workmanship... but you have been doing that all
    throughout your posts...... all cause I dont use vaccuum releif valves..

    I have posted on another forum about this issue and am waiting to
    get some responces ... I dont know what to expect to hear from them


    if you need to make this little spat between us
    into some sort of plumbing manhoood
    contest , then go see how many hand stands you can do
    in a toilet bowl and get back to me. :D;)
  17. Caduceus

    Caduceus Master Plumber

    Messages:
    136
    Location:
    Pittsburgh, PA
    I guess what you didn't realize was that when you went on your rant about not having photos to prove my initial statement and that VRVs should be installed if code requires it, no matter how stupid or absurd it is, you all but called my explanation a lie and implied that I was stupid for suggesting it if it wasn't required by code. It's insulting to another person to completely invalidate their statements with what is an opinion. When I shared my experience and knowledge with the forum you immediately contradicted it when you could have simply researched and found the truth in what I said. Are you telling me that you would not have felt insulted if I questioned your tried and true practices and implied that they were mere fiction. Your darn right you would be insulted. Imagine if you posted about a specific experience and I called you a liar, or said "prove it" and the resources weren't there to do so. Your heated comments about how unnecessary VRVs are sounded like an attempt to make me look foolish in my posts and please...don't read into it too much...my ego wasn't hurt, nor my pride. It was simply insulting and I see a lot of that happening in these forums. I have never implied on a forum that somebody was lying about information, especially if I was less informed than they were.
    By the way, in 2012 Indiana adopted the IPC 2006 code with amendments to the code. 675 IAC 16-1.4-6 Chapter 5; Water Heaters, subsection (b) has amended the IPCs 504.2 but still requires 1. a check valve with thermal expansion tank or 2. a vacuum relief valve on the cold supply of a bottom feed water heaters as per manufacturer installation recommendations. These new regs apply to new installations.
    I saw your response to my post as a slap in the face and if I slapped back too hastily and misinterpreted your text, then I was wrong.
    And I can do 12 handstands on a toilet bowl.
  18. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,416
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    What does it say about top feed water heaters?
    I haven't installed a bottom feeder in years.

    [​IMG]
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2013
  19. Reach4

    Reach4 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,801
    Location:
    IL
    Would a bottom feed water heater be one where the cold water inlet pipe was not on/near the top of the water heater?
  20. hey, no one on the other site has ever seen an imploded water heater
    and they want to see some pictures of one...


    some of them DO install vrv valves on their heaters and some dont..

    as far as how many handstands in a toilet bowl
    ,
    Cadecues has got everyone beat.;)
Similar Threads: Necessity Vacuum
Forum Title Date
Water Heater Forum, Tanks Vacuum relief on cold water feed? Jan 13, 2010

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