Navien Ch210 error code e30

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Samat

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I've had this unit for five years and now I get error e30 overheated exhaust temp. The unit automatically resets when the exhaust cools down during purge. I've replaced the exhaust temp switch with no change. The unit does have a 180 degree board so I lowered the temp to 170 and that did not work. I checked the filter screen in the heating loop and it was clear I am on very good city water. This only happens when the unit runs for an extended time when bringing up the house temp in the morning or me testing it. I'm going to flush the heating loop with vinegar but don't think it will do anything due to how good the filter screen looked. Any ideas? Navien tech has not helped much.
 
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Jac04

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Interesting - the only check that the service manual states is to make sure that the high limit switch is operating correctly. No other mentions of what could be the cause. What part number switch did you use?

Have you checked & cleaned the air inlet screen? Also, check for any obstructions in the exhaust piping.

Did Navien Tech tell you to check the heating loop screen and/or clean the heating loop side? If so, I think they have this confused with the 16E error, which is the heating loop water temperature high limit error. The 30E error is for exhaust temp 149F or above.
 
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Samat

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Interesting - the only check that the service manual states is to make sure that the high limit switch is operating correctly. No other mentions of what could be the cause. What part number switch did you use?

Have you checked & cleaned the air inlet screen? Also, check for any obstructions in the exhaust piping.

Did Navien Tech tell you to check the heating loop screen and/or clean the heating loop side? If so, I think they have this confused with the 16E error, which is the heating loop water temperature high limit error. The 30E error is for exhaust temp 149F or above.
I replaced the high temp switch and still E30. There is no restriction in the inlet or exhaust plumbing 3" CPVC. When I switched to the high temp board they make you go to CPVC exhaust because of the hotter exhaust but don't have you change the high temp switch. That is strange. The temp switchs are available through electronic suppliers at higher temperatures but I'm not going that route. I have been running at 180 degree water because with a setback it took too long to bring up the heat.
After doing some reading I've decided to turn down the water temp to 140 and have no setback at night. This is allowing the unit to stay in condensing mode all the time and should be more efficient. It hasn't been very cold here in Connecticut late so I will see how it works once winter weather sets in again. I also just flushed the heat exchanger today and the filter was very clean. The unit is back running now I'll wait and see.
 

Jac04

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Yeah, 180F supply temperature is WAY too high. That poor mod-con is basically firing like an on/off boiler. FWIW, my CH-180 supply temp is set to 115F with max firing rate limited to 30% and it keeps up just fine until it gets down into the 20s outside. I only set back a few degrees at night for comfort, but only when outside temps are in the high 30s or above.

Have you been running at 180F supply for the past 5 years? If so, the gas side of the heat exchanger could be fouled because you are never condensing. So, the burner is firing to try to make supply temp, but the heat exchanger isn't efficiently transferring heat to the water resulting in high exhaust temperature. Flushing the water side won't do anything to help with this issue.

A fairly knowledgeable guy at Navien once told me that you need to run in condensing mode at least some of the time to help keep the gas side of heat exchanger clean.

What are your current burn times and burns per hour? I would bet that you could go lower than 140F supply and still keep up with your heating requirements. But you will need to be careful not to lower the supply temp too much or you could also see short cycling because the boiler can't modulate low enough.
 
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Samat

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Yeah, 180F supply temperature is WAY too high. That poor mod-con is basically firing like an on/off boiler. FWIW, my CH-180 supply temp is set to 115F with max firing rate limited to 30% and it keeps up just fine until it gets down into the 20s outside. I only set back a few degrees at night for comfort, but only when outside temps are in the high 30s or above.

Have you been running at 180F supply for the past 5 years? If so, the gas side of the heat exchanger could be fouled because you are never condensing. So, the burner is firing to try to make supply temp, but the heat exchanger isn't efficiently transferring heat to the water resulting in high exhaust temperature. Flushing the water side won't do anything to help with this issue.

A fairly knowledgeable guy at Navien once told me that you need to run in condensing mode at least some of the time to help keep the gas side of heat exchanger clean.

What are your current burn times and burns per hour? I would bet that you could go lower than 140F supply and still keep up with your heating requirements. But you will need to be careful not to lower the supply temp too much or you could also see short cycling because the boiler can't modulate low enough.
I have been running it at 180 for five years. It only ran in condensing mode for a few minutes. I will be playing with supply heat to get it to run longer. Right now the downstairs zone runs in condensing mode through the whole burn but the upstairs zone does not. Cast iron recessed radiators downstairs and baseboard up stairs.
I'll check the run times over the next few days.
I think you might be right about the gas side being fouled. Do you think it will clear up now that I am condensing more.
I read a service manual for the newer units and they gave instructions for removing the top of the burner and flushing the outside of the coils with a low pressure water hose. I guess I could do that with the CH but it isn't mentioned anywhere in any manuals.
I know flushing the coil inside wouldn't do much but I had to give it a try anyway. I don't think I will see the 30E error anymore but wonder if the coils are as efficient as the should be.
 

Jac04

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Right now the downstairs zone runs in condensing mode through the whole burn but the upstairs zone does not. Cast iron recessed radiators downstairs and baseboard up stairs.
How are you determining this? Are you watching return temp, or witnessing condensate draining from the unit? If you are just looking at the "$ Save" icon on the remote, I'm not sure how good of an indicator that is since nobody has been able to tell me exactly when that icon will display on the remote.

I think you might be right about the gas side being fouled. Do you think it will clear up now that I am condensing more.
I read a service manual for the newer units and they gave instructions for removing the top of the burner and flushing the outside of the coils with a low pressure water hose. I guess I could do that with the CH but it isn't mentioned anywhere in any manuals.
It may clear up, but I honestly don't know if it would completely clear off or not.
You may be able to flush the heat exchanger in the same manner as the newer units. Does the newer service manual have you remove the burners before flushing? If so, it might be a real PITA to do it on a CH unit.

Just thinking .... Have you ever cleaned out the condensate drain trap? Not allowing condensate to drain would really wreak havoc on the heat exchanger efficiency. I actually drain my condensate into a 5-gallon bucket just so I can keep an eye on it.
 

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How are you determining this? Are you watching return temp, or witnessing condensate draining from the unit? If you are just looking at the "$ Save" icon on the remote, I'm not sure how good of an indicator that is since nobody has been able to tell me exactly when that icon will display on the remote.


It may clear up, but I honestly don't know if it would completely clear off or not.
You may be able to flush the heat exchanger in the same manner as the newer units. Does the newer service manual have you remove the burners before flushing? If so, it might be a real PITA to do it on a CH unit.

Just thinking .... Have you ever cleaned out the condensate drain trap? Not allowing condensate to drain would really wreak havoc on the heat exchanger efficiency. I actually drain my condensate into a 5-gallon bucket just so I can keep an eye on it.
The unit definitely condenses. I have it draining into condensation pump and it does cycle. It even cycled when the unit ran for a few minutes at 180. I am looking at the $ save icon for condensing. I will check the return temp. I have read return needs to be below 125 in order to condense? With the 180 setting I was getting about a 35 degree delta T. I installed the unit myself and guess I should have done some more reading as to how these things work.
The instructions for flushing the newer units has you take off the blower,chamber cover and burners. I think it would be a big job on the CH but it also looks like a big job on the newer ones.
 

Jac04

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Dana wrote an excellent article on mod-cons, check it out: http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/guest-blogs/sizing-modulating-condensing-boiler

You are seeing condensate at 180F supply only for a very short period of time until the return temp gets too high. As you stated, you want return temp at 125F or below. Also, chances are that the CH210 is too 'big' for your heat load and you may see short cycling. Try limiting your max firing rate as well as lowering the supply temp to get you longer, more efficient burns. Use Dana's article as a guide to see where you're at.

Ideally, you'd like the boiler to run all the time at a reduced firing rate, using an outdoor reset to keep the heat output just equal to your heat load. But, the CH units make you select from pre-programmed curves and I haven't found any of those that work well. So, I found that to get max efficiency I need to manually adjust the supply temperature based on outdoor temp. I just keep a chart next to the controller, which I have relocated to next to my thermostat. You can use thermostat wire to extend the controller wiring.

What are your current burn times and burns/hour? That will give you a good idea of where to go. My typical 'warm weather' burns are 10 minutes, 3 burns/hour, but once it gets colder outside my burn times increase to hours on end, especially during the overnight hours.
 
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Samat

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I've cut my temp to 130 and the unit has now problem keeping up. Looks like it runs for around a hour to go from 60 to 71 thermostat set at 70. No set back at night. The $saving icon stays on the whole time and return temp is around 120. Definitely condensing as I had the drain empty into a bucket to make sure.
Zone two is only 500 square feet with 11 foot ceiling and has about 25 feet of baseboard fins. It is kept at a constant 62 because it's not used. That zone is on its own circulator and the return water is only a couple of degrees warmer than the incoming water so it is not condensing. Would it help if I throttled down return valve to let more energy be released by slowing the flow.
I also have another question about the firing rate. Why lower it if the boiler modulates it itself?
After 5 years I'm starting to understand this thing but want to learn more. This unit has more than paid for itself over the oil burner it replaced and installing it myself. It paid for itself in the first year. Any advice would be much appreciated. I do not have a outdoor sensor would that be a big help
I'm going to go down to 120 and see what happens.
 

Jac04

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I've cut my temp to 130 and the unit has now problem keeping up. Looks like it runs for around a hour to go from 60 to 71 thermostat set at 70.

60 to 71? Is that a typo? Even if you mean 68 or 69 to 71 within an hour, then it is doing great and you would benefit from going even lower on your supply temperature. The only problem with going even lower on supply temp is that you will need to bump it back up when the temps outside start to get really cold.
I also have another question about the firing rate. Why lower it if the boiler modulates it itself?
Good question. The burner is most efficient when running at a lower firing rate. When the burner fires on a call for heat, it will fire as hard as possible to try to reach the setpoint as quickly as possible, then it will modulate to maintain supply temp. During this time, it is not operating as efficiently as possible. Limiting the firing rate helps efficiency and will increase burn times.
 
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Samat

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It was a typo should be 69-71. Lowered temp to 120 and now zone two is condensing. Think I'll stay this way for a while and see how it works once temperature outside gets colder. I'll play with firing rate. Next thing is wondering k factors are.
 

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Next thing is wondering k factors are.
The k-factors are used with the outdoor temp sensor to set your outdoor reset curve. I have the outdoor temp sensor, but I haven't found any k-factors that work well all-around. They all seem to set the supply temp too low when the outside temp starts to warm up. The unit doesn't fire until the supply temp gets to 10F below the set point. So, on a 59F day, with k=1.2 the supply set point = 86F. On a call for heat, the circulator runs, but he unit takes forever to fire since the supply temp takes a LONG time to drop to 76F. It's too bad, since the k=1.2 curve looks like it may work well for me below 40F outside. Other units allow you to program your own outdoor reset curve, but not the Navien CH series.
 

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Jac04 you have a big help thank you. I think I'll just stick with what I've got and enjoy the savings. Outdoor sensor sounds like not worth the effort. If this thing keeps running like it is now there is not a bad thing I can say against Navien.
Thanks again.
 

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Jac04 you have a big help thank you. I think I'll just stick with what I've got and enjoy the savings. Outdoor sensor sounds like not worth the effort. If this thing keeps running like it is now there is not a bad thing I can say against Navien.
Thanks again.
You're welcome. I was forced to learn about my CH-180 ASME since the guy who installed it just set it to 160F supply and walked away. The gas supply system was undersized as well, so I was forced to learn gas piping sizing to ensure the job was done right the second time around. I have received a lot of help on this forum, especially from Dana. He does a great job of explaining things, and the article he wrote is wonderful. Read it several times, then read it again.

You can pick up the outdoor temp sensor fairly cheap, but I agree that it's not worth the effort since the reset curves are not user-programmable. If the weather is going to be consistently colder than about 35F, sometimes I'll use the k=1.2 outdoor reset, which means I have to physically plug in the temp sensor which is kind of a PITA. But most of the time I just manually set the supply temperature. If I want to "set it & forget it", I use supply = 130F which gives me reasonable duration burn times when it's warmer out but still keeps up down into the single digits outside.

Keep me posted on how your unit is running.
 

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With the storm last night and my 120 degree setting the unit ran continuously and stayed within the thermostat range 69-70 but never hit 71 to shut off. I live on the shore and it's a bit warmer than inland with more wind but I think I should have hit 71. Raised temp on unit to 125 and it still keep running. Just put it up to 130 the see if it will cycle. I understand the running continuously is efficient but I want to have the thing cycle. Its in the upper 30's outside with wind so I think it needs the higher temp when it's really cold. Wind chill now is mid 20's which I would like to have the system handle.
 

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With the storm last night and my 120 degree setting the unit ran continuously and stayed within the thermostat range 69-70 but never hit 71 to shut off. I live on the shore and it's a bit warmer than inland with more wind but I think I should have hit 71. Raised temp on unit to 125 and it still keep running. Just put it up to 130 the see if it will cycle. I understand the running continuously is efficient but I want to have the thing cycle. Its in the upper 30's outside with wind so I think it needs the higher temp when it's really cold. Wind chill now is mid 20's which I would like to have the system handle.

The wind chill number is meaningless in HVAC terms- it's an equivelant-temperature measure of how fast exposed human skin will suffer frostbite. Wind chill is specifically NOT how much additional heat load the house experiences from the additional air infiltration and wind-washing of the wall's exterior air-films etc.

You don't really want the thing to cycle- you want it to modulate with the load, with very long or continuous burns, which can usually be achieved using outdoor reset control.

You DO want the entering water temperature at the boiler to be under 125F at all times, if at all possible, under 120F is better. That might be possible with 130F output, but it depends on the amount/type of radiation, and the actual heat load. For the napkin-math simplified explanation, see this. (Same article that jac04 linked to- read it!)

If it was barely holding ground with 125F output when temps were in the 30s, it's likely that you'll need 140F or higher water at your 99% outside design temperature, in which case adding the outdoor temperature sensor and dialing in the reset curve will pay for itself in fuel cost savings in less than one heating season.

BTW: Just because the pump was running continuously and never satisfying the thermostat doesn't mean the burner was running continuously with it set for 125F output. Observe it carefully- if it's cycling the burner 10x or more per hour with 3 minute burn cycles it's putting a lot of wear & tear on the system, and blowing away a good chunk of the condensing efficiency with every flue purge & ignition cycle.
 
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Jac04

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BTW: Just because the pump was running continuously and never satisfying the thermostat doesn't mean the burner was running continuously with it set for 125F output. Observe it carefully- if it's cycling the burner 10x or more per hour with 3 minute burn cycles it's putting a lot of wear & tear on the system, and blowing away a good chunk of the condensing efficiency with every flue purge & ignition cycle.
Samat - Dana brings up a good point as usual.
I found that my CH-180 would sometimes 'overshoot' my supply temperature set point when starting up on a call for heat, which would cause the burner to shut off even though the circ pump was still running and the t-stat was still calling for heat. That is another reason why I now limit the max firing rate to 30%. See what yours is doing and make adjustments as necessary.
 

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Do the math- the minimum fire output of the CH210 is about 18,000-19,000 BTU/hr in condensing mode, about 17,000 BTU/hr at higher temps. Fin-tube baseboards put out about 200 BTU/hr per running foot when the entering water temp is 125F. Unless you have a least (18,000/200=) 90 feet of baseboard it is guaranteed to be cycling the burner when the boiler is set to 125F.

It'll short cycle like crazy if/when only the 25' second zone is calling for heat, but how much baseboard or other radiation do you have on the main zone?
 

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Dana
The main zone is 1300 square feet and has flush mounted cast iron radiators. The total of radiators added together is 350 inches or approx 30 feet. There is also approx 36 feet of pex stapled under the floor in the bathroom for heating no radiator in that room. The system is two loops feeding the outside and returning down the center of the house.
The second zone second floor does not go on often at all as it is very well insulate and kept at 62.
I'm new at this and want to know what you mean by short cycling? I assume you want the boiler to run 24/7 at very low levels.
 

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Short-cycling is when there are many short burns per hour rather than fewer but longer burns. Ten or more burns per hour is a boiler-life shortening and efficiency robbing short-cycling disaster, under 5 burns/hour is fine, fewer than 3 is even better.

With high water volume cast iron it's almost never going to be a true short-cycling disaster, but it can often be improved quite a bit by dialing it in. And you probably have enough radiator to deliver nearly continuous burns, as outlined below. If you can drop from 25,000 ignition cycles per year to 5000 it'll do wonders for the longevity of the ignition components, and you will have saved the amount of heat blown out the venting by the 20,000 flue purges that were avoided.

To get a handle on the output of the radiators you need to estimate the total "equivalent direct radiation" (EDR) of the zone. If you look at the nomograph in that sizing document you'll see that at an average water temp (AWT) of 120F (which is about what you get with an entering water temp or "EWT" of 125F from the boiler) you get about 50 BTU/hr out of the radiators, about a third of what you get at a AWT of 17oF (EWT of ~180F).

Assuming the flush mounted rads are 5" deep and 20" high they are likely either Arco SunRads or Burnham Radiants or one of the equivalents, which run about 1 square foot EDR for every inch of width, so you're looking at 350' EDR plus a little something for the radiant floor. At 125F they're putting out about 17,500 BTU/hr, which balances just fine with the minimum-fire output of the CH210, and should be delivering pretty much continuous burns. If you crank the water temp up to more than what's needed to cover the instantaneous heat loss from the building, the thermostat gets satisfied more quickly, but it results in more burns per hour/day/year. Any of these look familiar?

100_0339.JPG
IMG_1339.JPG


With an outdoor reset control if you dial it in super-finely you can get it to run many hours per burn, or even days, until the heat loss from the house is less than the boiler's minimum fire output. When it's dialed in that well you're in mod-con nirvana- the radiators are always warm, just warm enough and never scorching, the boiler is operating at it's maximum efficiency, and it's taking the least amount of wear & tear on the boiler. (BadgerBoilerMN, a frequent poster on this site, has a system that he operates ONLY with outdoor reset- it's hard-wired to always be calling for heat, no thermostat. With the curve dialed in he's always comfortable.)

Since you have a heating history on the place you can estimate the whole house heating load at any arbitrary outdoor temperature using this methodology, and from there work backward with your EDR number to figure out the water temperature needed to deliver the heat at your 99% outside design temp, and set it up close to ideal from the get-go rather than stumbling around in the dark taking stabs at different water temps and k-curves until it kinda-sorta works-mostly. For 180F operation assume the Navien operated at an efficiency of 87%, for making the fuel-use based load calculation.
 
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