Moving into a house with well water and dying softener.

[chudilo]

Hello.
Thanks for a great forum. I have been doing a lot of reading (or self education) including a considerable number of posts here and finally decided to post myself.
I am moving into a house that is on well water and septic.
The softener that is currently in place is vibrating, making noise and was recommended to be replaced by the house inspector (due to potential media leakage, based purely on the age of the system). The current system was put in place in the 80s so I am planning to replace it. My thinking that if I am to do that I better do it right, as I am to live with whatever I put in for many years to come. I currently have no knowledge of specific levels of hardness in the water (I will update the post as soon as I have possession of the property and manage to conduct a full test) Could someone recommend a good reliable way to conduct a comprehensive test, that I could get done relatively quickly?

I have a number of unresolved theoretical questions that I would like to be answered.

1. I am very much a supporter of Green technologies and believe that flushing unused brine down into the soil is a terrible thing to do to to the environment especially on your own property (especially since the house is on septic) (no the backwash is not sent into the septic). Thus I think that a dual tank softener is the only reasonable option in order to make sure that the entire tank capacity as used every time. One thing I am wondering about is why can't the backup tank be something tiny that would only be used during the backwash process. (It could even be filled via the output of the main tank. (seems odd that no one has thought of that). Is it because the pump/meter assumes that the tanks are identical?
2. The house is next to a Nature Conservancy so I am confident that the water is free of contaminants and chances of that ever changing are slim. Should I still get an active carbon filter? assuming my water test comes back clean, can I believe the water from a 150ft well to be consistent throughout the year? Also, what happens with the backwash from the AC filter? I assume it would need a separate drain line, right?
3. I am strong believer in using metal parts for plumbing whenever water is under pressure. Is my reasoning still valid when hard water is involved? Would Brass/Stainless steel be more susceptible to Calcium / Magnesium / Iron buildup then plastic?
4. Water pressure and it's stability is a concern. I intend to have a rainshower and would like for it to be able to have some pressure. what determines the size of the pipe on the softener and would it significantly effect the pressure in and out of the softener. (I can upgrade the pipe run to the master bathroom and the washer if it really matters) Would it make sense to get the Fleck 7000 vs. 5600 in order to provide the improved pressure. Is the 7000SXT compatible with a dual tank configuration or do I need to go for the the 9000SXT?
5. I found a site that sells the Cation Resin 10% Cross Link - Purolite Brand Hydrogen Form Deionization Resin that people were having trouble locating: (moderators feel free to remove the link if it is in violation of rules) http://www.apswater.com/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=617&cat=Cation+Exchange+Resin

Thank you.

 

[ditttohead]

1. The brine efficiency design considerations for a traditional single tank softener can only be determined once a proper water test is done. In general, the efficiency gains from a dual tank (twin alternating) design are minimal in a residential application and difficult to justify. A properly sized unit designed to regenerate every 10-15 days will gain you almost the same efficiency as a twin alternating system. Low salting and conservative water use will gain you much better bang for the buck on efficiency. Lets wait to see some water reports before we make any suggestions. how many people in the house and pipe size etc are also very important factors to consider. Lastly, do you have a tankless water heater? This can allow you to have the highest efficiency if you are willing to do some simple upgrades. We will go over this later.

2. LOL, your water is safe because you are next to a nature Conservancy??? Please do not think that. get a real water test done. Water does and will change over time, this is natural and normal. Water testing should be done annually to see if their are any changes. If a noticable change occurs, a more detailed and thorough test shold be done. A GAC filter can act as a chemical sponge, if you find traces of certain organic chemicals etc in the water, GAC can be beneficial. it can also be a waste if your water is fairly contaminant free. Again, a water test should done to determine the porper treatment methods.

3. Metal vs plastic... I dont wat to startthis argument in this forum, it rages on too many forums. Both have their pluses and minuses. Personally, I would not use Pex, but most plumbers have grown to accept pex. I prefer copper for a multitude of reasons, most of them being the failures we have seen in houses under 10 years old with poorly manufactured plastic plumbing, but this can also occur with copper plumbing. Scale build up is more prevelant on metal plumbing, bacterial and slime buildup are more common on plastic plumbing. I will elave it at that, I will not disagree if any plumber comes on here and tells me Pex is the greates thing ever, or the worst. Honestly, properly installed, most plumbing components will serve you well for decades.

4. The flow rate of a system has 2 primary considerations. Service flow and peak flow. Service flow is the flow rate that system is rated for and will work best at. peak flow is the flow rate the system can handle intermittently. Exceeding service flows intermittently will have little affect on the systems life expectancy and performance. Many larger commercial systems run near their peak for years without a problem. Service flows should be used for 95% or more of the time. Peak flows also allow us to better meet code requirements. This is a long and complicated topic that has litle bearing in a residential application, especially if you will be installing this unit on a regular size house. the 7000 will meet your needs with ease. I would not recommend the 5600, the 7000 has much higher flow rates and is similarly priced.

5. No clue what you are talking about. I havent noticed any recent posts where this has been an issue. Any high quality 8% or 10% crosslink resin will serve you well for many years in a non chlorinated supply.

Now lets get a real water test done.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[chudilo]

Thank you for the great reply. This is why this forum is so great .

The previous owners have been doing annual tests (around the same time of the year) and said that the water is amazingly clean. I also have smelled and drank the water from the un-softened faucet in the kitchen and did not detect any tastes or smells (I will undoubtedly do a full test to protect myself and the family, just in case)
I do intend to salt the water conservatively for concerns over added sodium in the water.
There are 4 people in the household, but there is a guestroom and we intend to have up to have 2-3 people visiting for extended periods of time (my retired parents).
The water heater is all electric (as heater is on off peak electric pricing and the storage tank is super insulated, (owner quoted what sounded like some ridiculous numbers on degrees / per hour)
I totally get you on metal vs. Pex i was referring more to the water softener components specifically.
Thank you for confirming my suspicions.

As far as flow capacity is concerned, my wife likes to take long baths and showers in 5-7 minutes. I can't figure out how to take a shower quicker then 15 minutes

As far as the Fleck 7000 is concerned, i was wondering if it can be used in a dual tank setup.
The primary reason for considering the dual tanks is not to save salt but rather to prevent unused brine from being Flushed away just to have capacity for the estimated needs of the next day....it just seems silly to me, why not just have a separate tank (the price diff is about $300) as the pump is the main cost. With the added benefit of not having to think about the softener when using the dishwasher / washing machine overnight.
Thank you again.

 

[ditttohead]

The amount of salt used during regeneration has little affect on the sodium in the product water. It is more a matter of overall salt efficiency.

The water softener components are manufactured to the highest quality specs, assuming you are getting a Pentair, Clack, Fleck, Autotrol, and not some cheap knock-off valve. Even a NSF listing has little to do with the quality of the system, it may only mean it wont add poisonous chemicals to the water. There are many certifications. They are primarily plastics and composites. These tend to last much longer than the older metal valves. Metal valves subjected to brine, varying pH's etc can sometimes fail but this can take a few years to decades to occur.



Dual tank is fine, but lets see the water test before we make a real recommendation.

 

[chudilo]

I have spoken to one of the local installers. He had both Fleck and Autotrol on display. They said that they do not install the Fleck 7000SXT on Well water because the turbine meter keeps failing rather consistently. From my quick internet search it's a $70 or so part , that I will have to keep cleaning or replacing repeatedly. I found a couple of reports regarding the same problem on this forum and would like to know if that is something Fleck has addressed recently.
Dittohead I realise that you provided a guide to cleaning that gunk out, but ideally I would like avoid the problem to begin with. Does the autotrol have a different problem ? According to the guy I spoke with, it has an optical sensor that would not be susceptible to turbine issue.

The installer said he could install the 7000SXT for me, if I requested it specifically (as they are an authorized dealer and sell lots and lots of smaller fleck valves) , but he would advise against it as most people that got it have ended up getting rid of it after the warranty expired.
I wanted to believe him but was alarmed by how little he cared about performing a full water test prior to making a recommendation. (he asked me to tell him what I specifically wanted to test the water for) I still do not have the tests yet as I do not yet have possession of the property.

He did confirm that 5600 did not have the same problem but would not provide enough flow for my house.

 

[Mikey]

I can't figure out how to take a shower quicker then 15 minutes

Google "Navy shower" for instructions. Also it helps to use an "energy saver" shower head with a shut-off valve.

 

[Gary Slusser]

To test your water thoroughly, you'd need to spend multiple hundreds to thousands. The previous owners were testing annually for decades wasn't it? and never found a problem. Do you know how much hard water you have to drink to get any benefits from the minerals in it? There is 7.85 mg/l or ppm of added sodium added per grain per gallon of ion exchange softening. Check the label on most brands of bread and you'll usually see more sodium in one slice than you'd ingest if you drank a liter (all but a quart) of your softened water.

That resin you linked to, you do not want to use it, you need the sodium form of resin.

If a twin tank and a regular softener are both the same as to cu ft volume of the same type resin, and set up for the same number of gallons between regenerations (that requires the same lbs of salt BTW), neither is more efficient than the other.

All twin tank softeners use softened water to regenerate each tank and that means they use salt/capacity) to do that. Regular softeners are setup for a 24 hr or other reserve capacity, there is little to no difference in efficiency between the two. Those things are rarely mentioned by twin tank sales people.... Many Kinetico sales people mention how great their water powered control valve is....

 

[chudilo]

why would a twin tank setup need a reserve?

Why would a twin tank setup need any reserve at all? It is supposed to switch whenever it runs out of soft water. I would assume that it would run to zero(or just about zero) each cycle and switch tanks only once the water is used up. Isn't that the whole point?

 

[chudilo]

Google "Navy shower" for instructions. Also it helps to use an "energy saver" shower head with a shut-off valve.

I meant more of an normal, peaceful shower. Also, in Florida you're probably better off using solar(non-photovoltaic) for heating water and not be so concerned about how much energy it takes to heat the water.

 

[Mikey]

I meant more of an normal, peaceful shower.

The energy saving shower head will reduce consumption, but most try to provide a robust shower as well. If you want a peaceful rainshower experience, it'll cost you.

Also, in Florida you're probably better off using solar(non-photovoltaic) for heating water and not be so concerned about how much energy it takes to heat the water.

We do. Hot water costs the same as cold water for us, and as a bonus it kills just about all bacteria and who knows what else, since it's in the tank at over 160°.

 

[ditttohead]

Many people do not understand the actual operation of twin tank systems and their benefits. In a residentail application, if you can get your regenerations beyond 6-10 days, then a twin alternator has little savings potential over a single tank.

I dont really want to get into a pointless argument with people who dont understand the basic concepts, but I will say that twin alternating and similar designs are almost required in larger applications, commercial, industrial etc. A house uses very little water compared to many businesses, restaurants, dye plants, hospitals, hotels, laundries, etc. Multi-tank systems are the norm now, not the exception. In high hardness areas, or houses with lots of residents, a twin alternating system is often highly recommended, especially if the regeneration frequency cant be kept beyond 4 days between regenerations without going to excessively large equipment.

Lastly, the reserve... used by the softener to regenerate... that discussion is not even one to be considered and is a false argument, unless you are going to start removing the slow rinse and fast rinse water from the single tanks capacitys. Obviously we do not consider these during our calculations, these water uses are simply part of the acceptable variances we use for calculatiing a systems regneration frequency. The twin tank uses soft water during slow rinse and fast rinse, thereby not removing this capacity from the tank being regenerated. IE: you use it before, or after...it all comes out the same in the end.

It really is simple if you have a basic understanding and training that this industry makes available to people who are willing to participate.

 

[Gary Slusser]

Why would a twin tank setup need any reserve at all? It is supposed to switch whenever it runs out of soft water. I would assume that it would run to zero(or just about zero) each cycle and switch tanks only once the water is used up. Isn't that the whole point?

Actually it regenerates when the gallon meter counts down to zero. So does a regular softener. And that gallons part, it is based on the K of capacity the salt dose creates during a regeneration.

Let's say the two softeners are for your house and all three resin tanks are 1 cuft 9x48" tanks with the same type of resin in each tank. Let's say you need 20,000 of capacity, all 3 tanks will require 6 lbs of salt per regeneration and that includes the reserve for the regular softener and the capacity used for the twin tank softener which is in gallons and subtracted from the usable gallons/K of capacity.

Salt efficiency for all 3 tanks is 20,000/6lbs = 3333 grains per lb.. Now the Fleck twin valves are cocurrent/downflow brined meaning the cycle positions are identical to the regular softener's valve and the minutes the water flows during those cycles is going to be set the same for both types of softeners since this is based on your house. Do you see anything that shows better efficiency in the twin tank softener?

Kinetico twins are counter current/upflow brined so there is no backwash cycle so no backwash of the resin and they use fine mesh resin. No backwash isn't a good thing if you want to keep the resin clean of any type of sediment in the water so they install a prefilter to do that. That requires you changing the cartridge at your expense although they get to use less water per regeneration and they claim better efficiency. If you use fine mesh resin in a regular softener you can use the same lbs of salt but the softener will use a bit more water to regenerate with because the regular softener has a backwash, which means no prefilter is required.

Reading what I said about a reserve I can not see where you see me saying a twin tank softener has a reserve. Here is what I said; "All twin tank softeners use softened water to regenerate each tank and that means they use salt/capacity) to do that. Regular softeners are setup for a 24 hr or other reserve capacity, there is little to no difference in efficiency between the two."

 

[chudilo]

Finally in the house. The water has 20 units of hardness per gallon and only a trace of iron (less then 1ppm)

 

[chudilo]

Finally got a full water test done by a Lab.

These are the margins of error (for the test) , The actual results are posted later in this thread.
Coliform: 1 cfu /100 ml
Nitrate /N: 2.25 mg/l
Arsenic: 2.0 micrograms/l
Lead: L 2.0 micrograms/l

 

[Mikey]

Most regulators would object to your coliform count. I wouldn't accept it in my water.

 

[Reach4]

Coliform: 1 cfu /100 ml

Could it be that the report said Coliform: <1 cfu /100 ml ??

 

[chudilo]

Could it be that the report said Coliform: <1 cfu /100 ml ??

Actually I think I read the margin of error of the methods used to analyze the samples. Now that I read the statement again this morning , the sentence on the sheet makes perfect sense.
However, given the provided above margins of error, how definitive are the readings bellow?

The actual readings are:
Coliform: Absent
Nitrate /N : 2.25 mg/l
Arsenic: <2.0 micrograms /l
Lead: <2.0 micrograms /l

 

[Reach4]

Actually I think I read the margin of error of the methods used to analyze the samples. Now that I read the statement again this morning , the sentence on the sheet makes makes perfect sense. But then these Margins are Huge. How definitive are these findings then?

The actual readings are:
Coliform: Absent
Nitrate /N : 2.25 mg/l
Arsenic: <2.0 micrograms /l
Lead: <2.0 micrograms /l

Definitive? Don't know what the answer to that would be even if I understood the question.

You have 23% of the maximum EPA nitrate standard for drinking water.
http://water.epa.gov/drink/contaminants/basicinformation/nitrate.cfm

There are various opinions on nitrates in water. mg/l is pretty much the same as ppm and mg/kg.
http://waterquality.montana.edu/docs/homeowners/nitrate_fact_sheet.shtml http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7777773 talks about nitrate levels in fruits an vegetables. So I think you are fine with your nitrates.

Your coliform, arsenic and lead were below your test's level of detection.

 

[Mikey]

The actual readings are:
Coliform: Absent

That's more like it. Any coliform at all is cause for further testing, at least, and concern in general.