Misc Residentual Code Questions

Discussion in 'Electrical Forum discussion & Blog' started by Master Brian, Jan 28, 2009.

  1. Master Brian

    Master Brian DIY Senior Member

    Messages:
    368
    Location:
    Kansas
    As some may know from previous posts, I am needing to re-wire my house. I am planning on taking the Homeowners test, which in my local allows me to rewire my house and pull the permit to do the work.

    I do have some things, I'd like clarified before I get too far into the process. I have been looking through the 2008 NEC and I am trying to do a floorplan layout.

    1) I need two 20amp small appliance circuits, correct? Question is, can those supply other receptacles? i.e. Can these circuits, which will be supplying power to the countertops, supply the other outlets in the kitchen. The ones that are lower down the wall.... According to 210.52 of NEC, it looks as if they can.

    2) It looks like the small appliance circuit can feed the receptacle that powers a gas range. Am I correct? Again...According to 210.52 of NEC, it looks as if they can.

    3) Bathroom. This looks to need to be a 20amp circuit, independent of all others. Correct? What is confusing is are they wanting

    4) What appliances are supposed to be on dedicated circuits? My understanding is the furnace, fridge, sump, washing machine. Any others? What about dishwasher? I ask, because I haven't seen anything yet, but hear things. I've never had a house that had the dishwasher on a dedicated circuit, nor have my furnaces been. In fact, currently my furnace and sump are on the same circuit.

    I'm sure I'll have a few other questions as time goes on....

    Thanks
  2. Billy_Bob

    Billy_Bob In the Trades

    Messages:
    422
    First of all what code does your area go by and does your area / state have modifications to these rules?

    Maybe you go by 2008 NEC, but there is a booklet for your state/area which lists modifications? Might be just a few things listed on a web site for your city/state.

    So ask your local electrical inspector's office which NEC they go by [for where *you* live - city might be different from rural!], and ask if they have amendments to these rules and where you can get a copy of these amendments.

    For example in some areas a sump pump in a garage is required to be on a GFCI. Other areas have modified this rule so that a GFCI is not required.
  3. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

    Messages:
    2,534
    Location:
    North Carolina
    This is the correct section to be looking at. Read carefully (B)(1)

    Again look at (B)(2) Exception 2

    This is an incomplete sentence and I can only assume what you are asking so maybe it would be good for you to assume what my answer is.

    See section 210.23(A)(1) and (2)

    Then I would ask that you complete your thought before posting
  4. Alectrician

    Alectrician DIY Senior Member

    Messages:
    689
    Helpful huh? ^



    Only the refer and gas stove.

    20 amp to the bathroom recep.

    Dedicated circuits to the DW/Disp, built in micro, washer. Don't know about sump pump. Certainly not a bad idea.

    Get a 40 space panel and run as many dedicated circuits as you want. The two kitchen circuits are minimum. In my personal houses I always run several kit ctop circuits and install double duplex receps.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 28, 2009
  5. Master Brian

    Master Brian DIY Senior Member

    Messages:
    368
    Location:
    Kansas
    So you can run the fridge off the small appliance circuit?

    As for the DW/Disp, would it be ok to run those on a small appliance circuit or not? Looks like you say they should be independent. Does a DW really have that high of a demand? Like I said, they've always been on other circuits everywhere I've lived, but I've never lived in a house newer than the late 60's. Never had an issue either. I do want to be within NEC code, especially when I submit a plan to the inspector.

    I can see that the sump might be nice on an independent circuit, but the problem I see with that is IF that circuit trips, when would you likely find out? My thought, when you get a flood! I know a battery backup alarm would solve that.... Like I think I said, mine is on the same circuit as my furnace. I'm told that is wrong and will consider changing, but it does work and obviously has for some time. That's why I question it....

    As for the bathroom, didn't mean to make that incomplete, got distracted and didn't realize I hadn't finished! woops! The question is, NEC says 20amp independent circuit, with no other receptacles, but later it seems to say their can be other receptacles if in the same bathroom. Is that correct. Don't have the portions of the code in front of me.
  6. drick

    drick In the Trades

    Messages:
    392
    Absolutely! Run the wire from the panel to the fridge outlet first, then onto the kitchen counter. This is because you don't want your fridge to end up on a GFI protected circuit.

    Most dishwashers today have a heating element inside it to increase the water temp during the wash and for drying. 1500 watts is not unusual. I'd run a dedicated 12/2 to the dishwasher. Put the disposal on its own circuit. Some inspectors let you get away with placing it on the d/w circuit, but if your not 100% sure just run the dedicated circuit. Microwaves also require a dedicated circuit.

    The furnace should be on its own circuit. So should the sump pump. Just because it works doesn't mean it will meet code. Add a sump pit alarm.

    You can connect all bathroom OUTLETS in the house to one 12/2 circuit. This circuit cannot feed lighting in the bathroom (or anything else anywhere) UNLESS you have a dedicated 12/2 circuit for that particular bathroom - then you can add the bathroom lighting as well. In new construction it is common to put 2-3 bathrooms on one 12/2 circuit. In a remodel you should do whatever method is easiest for you.

    -rick
  7. Chris75

    Chris75 Electrician

    Messages:
    608
    Location:
    Litchfield, CT
    Code reference?

    Code reference?
  8. Scuba_Dave

    Scuba_Dave Extreme DIY Homeowner

    Messages:
    885
    Location:
    South of Boston, MA
    I follow code but I also follow common sense:

    The fridge I put on a dedicated circuit. I ran 12-2 in case we ever have a fridge that needs it (doubtful) but its on a 15a circuit

    My sump pump is in the laundry room & is on the laundry circuit
    Same circuit also had a small fridge, 11 cu ft freeze & a dehumidifier
    I ran a separate circuit for the sm fridge & the freezer

    I will have (3) kitchen small appliance circuits, plus a 4th in the sunroom off the kitchen.

    I run a dedicated 20a circuit to each bathroom
    Even on the 2nd floor where the bathroom are back to back
    Wife's hairdryer is 1500 watts - some are more

    My furnace is also on a dedicated circuit
  9. TedL

    TedL New Member

    Messages:
    604
    Location:
    NY Capital District
    One of the major advantages of DIY electrical is how cheap it is to add a circuit. For $10 or $20, you can have a separate 20 amp for each of the following: the refrig, DW, disposal, microwave, and any other 1000 or 1200 watt small or large appliance that sits ready to use in your kitchen. (For my planning, the small appliance circuits are for the things that get dug out of the cabinet.) And then I'd run four 20 amp/GFI small appliance circuits to supply the kitchen. Lots of duplex receptacles behind the counters make for cheap convenience & safety. Additional 20 amp to the DR for cooking/warming trays.
    Unless your kitchen is far from your service panel, home runs to the panel should be about as easy as daisy chaining receptacles. If far, consider a sub panel for the kitchen.
    As frequently said, codes are minimum. In the kitchen, I find minimum to be a small fraction of desirable for convenience, functionality, and, yes, safety. Few if any other $200-$250 upgrades (for a DIY) will gaive the ROI in convenience.
  10. GabeS

    GabeS Remodel Contractor

    Messages:
    294
    Location:
    Brooklyn NY
    The dedicated circuits are not only required because of watt usage. It's also for servicing. If your dishwasher breaks and you need to shut off the breaker to cut the power and it takes you three days to fix it, do you want to shut your fridge down for three days as well?

    Also, how do you quote portions of posts like that?
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2009
  11. Scuba_Dave

    Scuba_Dave Extreme DIY Homeowner

    Messages:
    885
    Location:
    South of Boston, MA
    I think it's copy, paste & edit out parts
    That's how I have done it
  12. GabeS

    GabeS Remodel Contractor

    Messages:
    294
    Location:
    Brooklyn NY
    So I don't hit the quote button?
  13. Scuba_Dave

    Scuba_Dave Extreme DIY Homeowner

    Messages:
    885
    Location:
    South of Boston, MA
    Yes - you do use the quote button

    But then once the quote is up, copy & paste it for the number of answers you will post. Then edit each quote specific to the question & the answer you will provide

    copied quote from above
    Yes

    But I usually click it ;)
  14. GabeS

    GabeS Remodel Contractor

    Messages:
    294
    Location:
    Brooklyn NY
  15. GabeS

    GabeS Remodel Contractor

    Messages:
    294
    Location:
    Brooklyn NY
    Do you see what is happenening? It's not putting them in blue boxes?
  16. PeteD

    PeteD New Member

    Messages:
    52
    Location:
    MA
    Not sure about the code, but the microwave can be a huge draw. We used to trip our breaker all the time before it was on its own circuit.
  17. Billy_Bob

    Billy_Bob In the Trades

    Messages:
    422
    When you hit quote, it has an initial quote with brackets, message, then a bracket, slash, QUOTE, and bracket.

    Don't remove the last slash QUOTE, type below that.
  18. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    21,990
    Location:
    New England
    You'd have to check, but I think a laundry circuit is limited to just the WM and (if gas) dryer; nothing else is supposed to be connected to it.
  19. GabeS

    GabeS Remodel Contractor

    Messages:
    294
    Location:
    Brooklyn NY

    Like this.


    And this.

    Woo hoo
  20. Alectrician

    Alectrician DIY Senior Member

    Messages:
    689
    Built in microwaves.

    In some cases vent hoods require a dedicated circuit. I assume because so many people are switching them out to micro/vent combos.
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