Master Plumber and hot water heater swap out

Discussion in 'Water Heater Forum, Tanks' started by augusta, Mar 23, 2011.

  1. Redwood

    Redwood Master Plumber

    Messages:
    7,450
    Location:
    Connecticut
    Well Hillbilly Man, How is it that you understand the 1:1700 expansion ratio of water to steam and our engineer friend doesn't?
    Yes his silly little relief valve is inadequate.
  2. dlarrivee

    dlarrivee New Member

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    1,172
    Location:
    Canada
    A pot on the stove?

    Wouldn't the diameter of the pot be different than the diameter of the orifice on a valve?
  3. Redwood

    Redwood Master Plumber

    Messages:
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    Location:
    Connecticut
    To aid our engineer the following formula can be used... [​IMG]

    He is also failing to realize the set pressure of the relief valve...

    But Hey... Engineers are good at revising their work on paper when miscalculations occur.

    Even a pressure cooker only operates up to 15 psi....
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2011
  4. thank you for the pictures

    Bored again this morning
    thank you for the pictures.....

    1. the junction box is about normal that is no big deal

    2. the water lines look pretty crappy and they should have been changed out to new flex connectors.... that will come back and screw you eventually......they cost about only 10 bucks each to clean that up

    3. I guess the chimmney is no big deal, but it looks crappy just hanging there....it does keep the water heater cool with ventilation, I guess....??

    4. The PVC issue is basiacally a joke .... it will work ok for probably 100 years... but the cpvc is what you are supposed to use if it gets inspected....

    where does it release down to... just down to the floor or into the crawl space???

    5 the waterheater should have been installed in a pan with the pop off pipe dropping down into it... then the pan should have been piped into the crawl space if you have one... you can clearly see where the old heater already damaged the tile on the floor..

    as far as the water heater exploding, it aint gonna happen too often..

    that job is worse than I have seen the lowes guys and home depot do work for... I quote it at no more than $250.00.....


    actually most water heaters dont go through the roof due to the
    walls and surroundings... they usually make a good concussion
    that can damage all surrounding appliances and walls
    if it really blows, it could take out some windows
    it all depends.... but flesh and bone dont want to be
    anywhere near this event.....



    [​IMG]
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 3, 2011
  5. Redwood

    Redwood Master Plumber

    Messages:
    7,450
    Location:
    Connecticut
    Ummm Mark, It's not CPVC.... It's PVC!

    [​IMG]
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 3, 2011
  6. yes it is

    Redwood, it should be cpvc and that is what I use all the time....

    but you know as well as me that the pvc sch40 will work for a hundred years.....how many potable water systems have you seen jack-legged in pvc sch40 both on hot and cold in your carreer????

    we both know it is wrong in theory....and the odds are
    their will never,,, ever be a problem with it.
    being a non pressure drain line for the heater is not
    too criticle...

    I suppose if steam literally came out of the heater
    it could eventually warp the pipe , but I doubt it would melt it......



    but just to be a pain in the ass,
    I would make him change it:cool::cool:.
  7. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

    Messages:
    4,198
    Location:
    NW Ontario, Canada
    I don't get the "pot on the stove" analogy. Under normal circumstance, a water heater with an open TPR will be supplied with cold water at the same rate the TPR is relieving. You'd have to have one heck of a fast recovery heater to keep it boiling. Generally you wouldn't be pouring cold water into a pot on the stove as fast as it can take it cuz then it would not continue to boil and would simply overflow.
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2011
  8. Redwood

    Redwood Master Plumber

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    Location:
    Connecticut
    I guess you are right Mark...
    It will do fine until the day it is actually needed....

    Then it will just look like those pvc drain lines someone puts in a commercial kitchen for a dishwasher drain...
  9. will work till it fails....


    the restraunt pvc pipe is a great example of what steaming hot water does to pvc pipe...

    that is probably about right,,, the pipe might warp from intence heat or steam...but it wont actually melt away......

    I feel as long as it dont go down into the crawl space it would work fine...

    we did have one that was piped into someones crawl space that caused massive damage one time...

    the releif valve popped off and kept popping off for about a month or two...

    the people were too stupid to figure out what was going on and eventually the steam in the crawl space warped the plywood floors throughout the center of the home....

    you could write your name in the humidity on all their windows.

    the insurance company was not amused:cool:....

    ..






  10. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

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    Location:
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    You would get it if you were a plumber.
    The water stays hot, hot enough to burn your hand. I've seen it happen when there is something wrong with a heater and the elements won't turn off.

    Things happen, and a working relief valve is only as good as the pipe draining it. Reduce the size of the relief drain, or plug it, and horrible things can happen.
    In the old days of steam power, they had engineers to prevent those disasters.
    They didn't call them engineers because they knew how to steer the trains.
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2011
  11. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

    Messages:
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    Location:
    NW Ontario, Canada
    I'm not a steam locomotive engineer either, nor do I make moonshine. The problem with the moonshine still analogy is that it would not be fed a constant supply of cold make-up water. Now a steam locomotive is purpose built to make steam in large quantity...
  12. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
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    Location:
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    And yet a water heater will tear right though the roof of a building and land city blocks away in an intersection.
    Imagine driving down the street and being hit by a water heater.

    Water tank explodes, lands 400 feet away

    http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=20010727&slug=boom27m

    http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=20010610&slug=homedhay10

    http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/homegarden/2003655354_hay07.html

    http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19980111&slug=2728118

    [video=youtube;5pVQryuKMj8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pVQryuKMj8[/video]

    At 60 pounds pressure, water boils at 307.4 degrees
    At 0 pounds pressure, water boils at 212 degrees
    At 50 pounds pressure, it releases the same energy as two pounds of dynamite.
    I give the WATTS video five stars. I learned a lot from this video.


    [video=youtube;l3i_ZGPtm68]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3i_ZGPtm68[/video]
    Maybe two stars on this, but still pretty fun.
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2011
  13. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

    Messages:
    4,198
    Location:
    NW Ontario, Canada
    Anyone have statistics on the frequency of such a thing happening? I don't recall if the Mythbusters gave statistics.

    According to the U.S. National Weather Service, the odds of being struck by lightning in my lifetime are about 1 in 5,000 so I won't step into the shower during a storm. I was standing at the kitchen sink once, looking out the window at a storm that was looming, when an arc jumped between the open metal-clad window and the faucet. Hopefully that's as close as I'll ever get to being struck.
  14. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,448
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    My son is in a band, and the drummers day job is painting. His boss was cleaning up his equipment in the garage when the fumes exploded, blowing him through the closed garage door with burns all over his body.
    He had plugged in an electrical cord and it sparked.

    There is a lot of stuff that happens in construction that never makes the news. We sometimes make jokes, but it's not news if it happens to construction workers.

    I was working with a guy that saw two of his buddies buried in concrete during a pour on one of the big hydro dams. The men had fallen and the other workers were ordered to keep pouring. More things happen then you realize.
    I think compensation for a loped off hand is something like $15,000


    New home construction is permitted and inspected. They try to keep things safe.
    We wouldn't be allowed to run PVC for a relief line. And we couldn't trap it either. It is the permits and the inspections that prevent a lot of this. But do we come across bad stuff? Sometimes. Like the heater that flew 400 feet through air in the Seattle area that did make the news, someone had plugged a leaking T&P.
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2011
  15. dlarrivee

    dlarrivee New Member

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    Location:
    Canada
    Terry what do you use for relief lines, I just checked and mine is PVC too... :(
  16. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,448
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    I've been using copper.
    I don't have any PVC fittings in the truck.
    I don't work outside the foundation very often. UPC code doesn't allow PVC inside the foundation, and only for cold water.
    Some of the newer homes, I've seen CPVC being used. I haven't done new construction for a while.
  17. dlarrivee

    dlarrivee New Member

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    1,172
    Location:
    Canada
    My T&P gurgles some water out, and closes properly, but it isn't a huge rush of water like I expected...
  18. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

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    Location:
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    If you open it all the way, it will be full stream.
  19. Redwood

    Redwood Master Plumber

    Messages:
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    Location:
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    I'd say BallValve needs to watch the Watts Video from about 5:08 on to see what his engineering is missing with his absolute confidence in relief valves....

    [video=youtube;5pVQryuKMj8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pVQryuKMj8[/video]

    In spite of the relief valve it still went boom...
  20. dont worry little fella.......

    you have a better chance of winning the power ball lottery than having a water heater blow up on you

    actually its probably more likely to win the lottery twice in the same month..

    you need to find somethign else to worry about..
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