Making an old well sanitary

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Speedbump

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If you have 230 volt three phase, two if not all three of the wires will have 115 volts which can be used to make up 230 volt single phase. You won't have a neutral to make up 115 volt single phase unless someone ran one out there for that purpose. The only submersible motor that is 115 volts is the half horse. All the rest up to 5 hp are 230 volts.

I don't think ten feet would be far enough away for me.

bob...
 

Nofears67

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I just spoke to my well guy and he said any new well has to be 20 feet from the old one. I guess that is our County requirement.

He basically said point blank "You don't want to use the existing well for your new home's potable use, You should drill a new one".

I know, I know...he wants to make $$ by drilling me a new well but his reasoning was that we could dump ~$15K in "attempting" to rehab the existing well with no guaranteed positive outcome or spend ~$20K to drill a new well, install a 3-5 hp submersible and have it be pristine. He also said we could use the existing three pahse electrical service to feed the additional well while still keeping the existing well in place and active for our orchard's irrigation system.

At this point I am leaning to the new well. I am still meeting him onsite Saturday to further discuss the situation.
 

Nofears67

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Will do. Thanks Cary!

Also, what do you guys think is a reasonable cost for the drilling of a new well approx 300' deep with a new 3-5 hp submersible pump/motor?

Thanks
 
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Speedbump

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Why in the world do you want a 5hp pump in this new well? I thought it was just for the house. Aren't you going to use the old well for the trees?

I don't know if we are mixing apples and oranges; but here a 300 foot well would run you around $3900.00. That's just the well, but a normal pump package with 1hp pump, tank and csv would be around $1695.00 installed.

bob...
 

Nofears67

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I'm not sure how big a pump I would need but I do know that we will have fire spinklers in the home, and knowing that, the demands at the home would be between 20-40 gpm to cover all domestic/irrigation/fire protection demands. We will have a lot of slopes to irrigate around our home as we are building on a slope and will have large cut and fill slopes that will require slope stabilization planting and irrigation.

I am putting together a request for proposals from 4 local well drillers. One of them told me today on the phone that it is costing $19/ft for air drilled and $25/ft for rotary drilled. His price included all drilling, casing, gravel pack, sanitary seal and pump pad per local requirements (California). We anticipate needing to go between 250-300 feet deep.

I can purchase the pump/motor myself and have them install it if that would save me money. I will also do all discharge piping myself.

And yes, the existing 10hp well will be used to irrigate the apple orchard.
 
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Gary Slusser

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I just spoke to my well guy and he said any new well has to be 20 feet from the old one. I guess that is our County requirement.

He basically said point blank "You don't want to use the existing well for your new home's potable use, You should drill a new one".

I know, I know...he wants to make $$ by drilling me a new well but his reasoning was that we could dump ~$15K in "attempting" to rehab the existing well with no guaranteed positive outcome or spend ~$20K to drill a new well, install a 3-5 hp submersible and have it be pristine. He also said we could use the existing three pahse electrical service to feed the additional well while still keeping the existing well in place and active for our orchard's irrigation system.

At this point I am leaning to the new well. I am still meeting him onsite Saturday to further discuss the situation.
IMO, you want a new well and it must be out of the well head protection area of the old one and, the old one out of the wellhead protection of the new one. IOWs, you do not want either well effecting the recovery rate of the other. That 20', even in a rock bore well is nowhere near enough to accomplish that.

Another way to say it is, neither well should be in the recovery area or especially in the cone of depression of the other. If that is not done, your water quality can suffer and both wells will be drawing the other well down; especially the old well because it will be pumping more water than the house will use.

When you get the new well, then you must find the peak demand gpm the house requires and size the pump to be able to provide them at the pressure you want to run the system at, and then you find the hp to get the job done from whatever depth the pump is expected to have to pump from. To be thinking of a 3-5 hp pump for a 300' deep well and just a house, you must be building an 8 bathroom mansion with 4-6 body spray 2 person showers and large 2 person whirlpool tubs...

I think his prices are way high.
 

Nofears67

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3 bdrm, 2.5 bath home
3632 sq ft
1 - 110 gal soaking tub
1 - 2 person shower with body sprays
Lots of irrigation.
 

Gary Slusser

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A submersible pump comes in two parts, the wet end rated in gpm and then the hp. Without looking it up, a 35 gpm 1 to 1.5, or 2 hp pump will do that 25-40 gpm.

Don't forget water treatment equipment, like a softener etc., or the space it needs to be installed. It also has to be sized for the peak demand gpm.
 

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I just got another cost estimate from another driller for $40/ft but that included:

-drilling
-casing
-gravel pack
-sanitary seal
-6'x6' pump pad
-2 hp pump
-85 gal bladder tank
-pressure switch and all related piping

In addition he would charge
-$1000 mobilization
- ~$500 for all permitting

So basically about $13,500 said and done.

I'm not sure what the materials and installation cost for a 2 HP pump, capable of producing 25-40 gpm, would be and if that additional cost per foot is reasonable.

???
 

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You may find that the new well will produce enough water to supply both the orchard and your home. It is easier to maintain one well than two.

sammy

The only problem with this is that the demand for the orchard irrigation system is probably in the range of 50+ gpm (we have never really measured it). The pulse sprinklers that are used on a row of trees put out huge amounts of water and about 30 heads run on a row at one time. We normally run the existing well all night long to irrigate two rows of tress and then move the line between the next two rows, and so on. It would be challenging to calculate the total flow as the heads are so archaic that they have no flow ratings on them and the trunk line pipe that trasmits the water up the line leaks like a sive. I guess I could probably upgrade the piping to pvc and replace all of the heads. The only issue with this is that we normally leave the piping and heads out all year long in a pile and we get freezing temps in the winter that would destroy the pvc.

If we wanted to do this what would happen if we were irrigating and our home had a large demand at the same time?

Would we want to fill the old well with concrete or bentonite or something to actually plug it?
 
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Nofears67

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One well influencing another is a possibility but the farther away that you drill the new well, the chances of that happening will decrease. The county says that you should have a 20' minimum distance from the old well but that is only the minimum. I see you have a lot of property so utilize the space and drill the new well as far away from the old one as possible, not just 20 feet. You also need to consider septic set backs.

There is another well on our property, about 200 feet away from the existing, that is not a good producer. This is the only reason why I would attempt to locate the new one a minimum distance form the existing. Because I know the existing is into a great aquifer. The oil issue with the existing should remain consealed within that column and casing correct? The demand from the new well should not "pull" any of that oil through 20 feet of saturated soil and into the new well should it?

Thanks
 
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Nofears67

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Sammy,

The existing well (in the picture above) was rotary drilled to an unknown depth (I'm currently looking for County records to determine the depth, but there may not be any) I know it was drilled because my father in law remembers that. The other existing well (the poor producer) I have no clue about except that he has told me it was a poor producer. It also lies about 50 feet from a nearby stream channel.

The materials in the area are mostly alluvial in nature.

If we drilled our new well, just 20 feet away from the existing and away from the poor producer, I'm sure it would be pulling from the same aquifer.
 
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Gary Slusser

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Riverside, I found this article (link below) at the NGWA web site. I used to belong to the Association, it is about rock bore wells and the cone of depression and at the end, the article specifically mentions a vertical turbine pump.

With the volume of water you use for the orchard, I'd pay specific attention to the distance between wells.

http://www.ngwa.org/public/gwbasics/unconfined_aquifers.aspx

I don't know the tolerance of apple trees for oil but if it were me, I'd get the oil out of the well or at least talk to the county extension office to find someone that might be able to tell me if there would be a problem.

As the well is pumped down, the oil can migrate away from the well on top of the water as it moves away from the well, if it moves away, such as to another well nearby.
 
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Nofears67

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I don't know the stats of the other well besides it is also a vert turbine and small, like probably 5hp or something.

With water quality our primary concern we are also trying to keep costs down. If we can just drill another well and leave the one with the oil in it in place (and possibly use it to still water the orchard) then that would be our preferred route.
 

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I am very familiar with hydrology as I am a degreed environmental scientist, have been working in the water industry for over 20 years and am certified in water treatment, water distribution and water reclaimation. I have studied cones of depression quite extensively.

The important thing here is that the oil is not a contamination plume, but is instead confined to the pump column and possinly between the column and casing. The oil should be floating and maybe some sludge has dropped to the bottom of the well.

The way I see it is even if I were to drill our new well in close proximity to the existing, let's say only 20 feet away, and the existing is pumping all night to irrigate the apple trees and the new one (of course) kicks on throughout that same night that even though the cones may overap, our demand would be so small (as compared to the 10hp pump) that we would not be drawing water towards our well but instead the 10hp's cone would affect the water levels in our well adversely. What I'm saying is I don't think we would be "drawing" any oily water towards our well. Instead the cones will overlap affecting the pumping water levels.

The location I am thinking will be good for our new well will likely be about 40-50 feet away from the existing and will be at a slightly higher elevation.

I will discuss this issue with the driller that is coming up to my place Saturday and will report the discussion.
 

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Cone of Depressions do not apply to Rock Bored Wells

Here in my area of Florida, all the "real" wells (not surface water) wells are made in lime rock. Rock wells. We have a lot of Strawberry farms and lots of Orange Groves that have large wells with Submersible Turbine pumps on them. The cone of depression around one of these wells with a fairly large motor and pump can pull wells in the immediate area down in a big hurry. I have customers that call every time we have a freeze and the strawberrie guys are icing in the berries. Their pumps are running but not pumping. We have lowered some customers pumps as much as 84 feet and had them draw down that much further during a colder freeze.

So the statement above does not make any sense to me. A cone of depression is just that. When you fire up a large pump, you will pull the water level down in the area surrounding that well. The further away, the less the depression, but nevertheless, it is still there.

bob...
 

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I am very familiar with hydrology as I am a degreed environmental scientist, have been working in the water industry for over 20 years and am certified in water treatment, water distribution and water reclaimation.

Oh boy, now your scaring me. Here I thought you were a level headed homeowner with an apple orchard and instead your one of those environmental waccos.:confused:

In reality, I tend to agree with you that this is not a plume and it's not really all that dangerous. It's not like we have 55 gallon barrells of the stuff buried all around your property. Chances are there aren't more than a few gallons in the well. "Hopefully"

I would still try to get as much of the stuff out of that well as I could though. Just for the peace of mind it might allow you down the road.

bob...
 

Nofears67

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So the statement above does not make any sense to me.
bob...


Not sure which statement of mine you are referring to.

I understand the way cones work...What I meant was that if the larger pump was running that it would affect the pumping level in the newer/smaller well. Hopefully not to the point of breaking suction, but that the smaller well would not "pull" the oil laden water from the larger well towards the smaller well.
 

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Oh boy, now your scaring me. Here I thought you were a level headed homeowner with an apple orchard and instead your one of those environmental waccos.:confused:
bob...

LOL..Although I am a degreed scientist in the environmental field I am probably one of the most level headed and down to earth folks working in the area. I'm no wacko by any stretch of the imagination...:eek:
 
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