Low water pressure on well system

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Mihomeowner

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Recently bought a house and trying to troubleshoot some water problems. It's a well system, and I've been on a well at other houses so I have a decent understanding about how they work. I feel something is up with this system.

The water pressure on the upstairs floor gets pretty weak. If your taking a shower and someone flushes the toilet, you definitely feel it. If the washer machine is running your shower is going to suck. Stuff like that. You have to be careful about running more than one water appliance or the pressure gets really low. Sometimes down to a trickle. It's a 3500 sq ft house.

The pressure tank is a lot smaller than other systems I've seen, I thought it was odd when I saw it (26 gallons). I thought maybe it was shot, but it's fairly new (less than 2 years old).

In monitoring the cut-in and cut-out, the pump engages at about 40 psi and cuts out at 70 psi. Is it perhaps the cut-in needs to be raised?

I'm not sure about the pump other than the attached picture which maybe leads me to believe it's 3/4hp?

I know there is a lot more to it (flow rate, etc.) but can someone point me in the right direction? A plumber who was over for something else said something to the effect of "get a larger tank and you won't have these water pressure issues upstairs".

Thanks
 

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Reach4

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A bigger pressure tank will increase the run time for the pump, but it will not help the pressure.

I would look for a whole house filter that is clogged. Maybe a water softner. If you don't find that, get a water pressure gauge with a garden hose thread (under $20 locally). Compare the pressures while running the shower. You can connect that pressure gauge to a laundry connection or the drain valve for the water heater.

Are your pipes galvanized? Are you sure the valve between the pressure tank and the rest of the house is fully open?
 
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Valveman

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40/60 is the standard for most homes these days, and if you turn it up it would normally be to 50/70. When I see a wider bandwidth like 40/70, it tells me someone is trying to reduce the number of on/off cycles on the pump. Your pressure problem is caused by the cycling. When water is being used the pump is cycling on and off between 40 and 70. At 70 you are probably feeling good pressure in the shower. But a minute or so later the pressure is down to 40, and everything in the house sees almost 1/2 pressure from 70.

A larger tank will slow down the cycling, but it will leave you at low pressure for much longer times. At 50/70 a 26 gallon tank only holds about 5 gallons of water, so you are going from 30 to 70 and back to 40 for every 5 gallons used.

That 26 gallon tank is way bigger than you need if you solve this problem with a Cycle Stop Valve. With a 50/70 pressure switch and a 26 gallon tank, the CSV1A would hold a constant 65 PSI for as long as you are using water. Even if you are in the shower for a month the pump will only cycle once, and the constant 65 PSI would be so much stronger pressure in the shower that people tell me they don't even need soap anymore. :)

This is what you need. https://cpkits.com/collections/residential-pump-control-valves/products/csv1a

Here is how it works.
 
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MI Well Drilling

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Try connecting a garden hose up to the boiler drain near the pressure tank and see how the water comes out. If the pressure is good start looking for plugged softener head or a filter like the other man said. The existing 2 year old tank is doable may as well keep using it
 

Mihomeowner

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Thanks to all for the replies. After getting side tracked with some other stuff, back to the water pressure issues. I dove in to it again yesterday and wanted to post my results.

A bigger pressure tank will increase the run time for the pump, but it will not help the pressure.

I would look for a whole house filter that is clogged. Maybe a water softner. If you don't find that, get a water pressure gauge with a garden hose thread (under $20 locally). Compare the pressures while running the shower. You can connect that pressure gauge to a laundry connection or the drain valve for the water heater.

Understood about the tank size. It's starting to make a little more sense now with regards to tank size. I think you were on to something with the softener. See reply below and thanks again for your help.

Try connecting a garden hose up to the boiler drain near the pressure tank and see how the water comes out. If the pressure is good start looking for plugged softener head or a filter like the other man said. The existing 2 year old tank is doable may as well keep using it

Plugged softener... you might be on to something. See reply below

40/60 is the standard for most homes these days, and if you turn it up it would normally be to 50/70. When I see a wider bandwidth like 40/70, it tells me someone is trying to reduce the number of on/off cycles on the pump. Your pressure problem is caused by the cycling. When water is being used the pump is cycling on and off between 40 and 70. At 70 you are probably feeling good pressure in the shower. But a minute or so later the pressure is down to 40, and everything in the house sees almost 1/2 pressure from 70.

A larger tank will slow down the cycling, but it will leave you at low pressure for much longer times. At 50/70 a 26 gallon tank only holds about 5 gallons of water, so you are going from 30 to 70 and back to 40 for every 5 gallons used.

That 26 gallon tank is way bigger than you need if you solve this problem with a Cycle Stop Valve. With a 50/70 pressure switch and a 26 gallon tank, the CSV1A would hold a constant 65 PSI for as long as you are using water. Even if you are in the shower for a month the pump will only cycle once, and the constant 65 PSI would be so much stronger pressure in the shower that people tell me they don't even need soap anymore. :)

This is what you need. https://cpkits.com/collections/residential-pump-control-valves/products/csv1a

Here is how it works.

I knocked the cut on pressure up to 50psi so now it's running 50-70. Why not run 50-70... because your pump cycles more? What is the limited factor? I know it's not fixtures, no fixture should have an issue with 70psi. Also the CSV stuff has me really intrigued. It looks great on paper... but why isn't this catching on? I've never seen it used in a home, but I only have experience with a handful of well systems.

*** MAIN REPLY ***

Those of you who said there might be something blocking the flow, I think you are right. My water softener has a bypass valve. When I bypass the softener, water pressure is noticeably improved.

The softener is a Fleck 5600SE valve. I took apart the valve looking for any sediment that might be slowing things down. There was some iron build up, but not much (there is an iron remover system prior to the water softener). However I soaked the valve in iron out to remove all the iron and didn't notice any other debris that impede flow.

Now that I know the valve is essentially good, I am guessing it might be the resin? Also I don't think it was regenerating enough. It was set to 2300 which I think is 2300 gallons before regeneration. The max days was off. I set the max days to 1, I will regenerate it every night to try to improve the resins.

I may just replace the resins... haven't done that before but it doesn't seem overly complicated. If the valve is good and clean, is the only other thing the resins? Or am I overlooking something else?

Thanks again for everyone's replies.
 

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Why not run 50-70... because your pump cycles more? What is the limited factor? I know it's not fixtures, no fixture should have an issue with 70psi. Also the CSV stuff has me really intrigued. It looks great on paper... but why isn't this catching on? I've never seen it used in a home, but I only have experience with a handful of well systems.

The limiting factor is the pump. If the pump will easily build 70 PSI, there is no reason you can't have 50/70 if you want it. At higher pressures the tank holds less water, but the pump also puts out less water, so the cycles should be about the same.

CSV's have caught on. Some installers have used a CSV on every pump they install for 25 years now. But many installers don't really know how pumps work and therefore do not like CSV's. While others understand the CSV makes pumps last longer and use smaller and less expensive tanks, which is WHY they don't mention a CSV.

An interesting side note; I had two customers on the phone yesterday. One of them had talked to Pentair pumps and the other had talked to the techs at Grundfos. When they were asked about using a Cycle Stop Valve both of them said they had been instructed not to discuss Cycle Stop Valves. When pressed the lady at Pentair said "make sure to have a good overload device on the pump to keep the CSV backpressure from overloading the motor". Those of you who know pumps will instantly see how funny that is. For one thing the backpressure from a CSV, Dole Valve, or even just a gate valve will reduce the load on the pump/motor, not increase it as the Pentair tech thinks. For another thing all of those submersible motors her company makes already have an overload device built in, so you don't have to add another one, which is another clue she doesn't know what she is talking about.

It is kind of funny, but then again it isn't funny at all. It is funny that these techs and engineers for pump companies know so little about their own products or pumps in general. But then again it isn't funny that they try to keep you from using a CSV strictly BECAUSE it will make pumps last longer, and they don't like that. The best place to find out how a CSV works is to read the reviews from people who have one.
 

Reach4

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The softener is a Fleck 5600SE valve. I took apart the valve looking for any sediment that might be slowing things down. There was some iron build up, but not much (there is an iron remover system prior to the water softener). However I soaked the valve in iron out to remove all the iron and didn't notice any other debris that impede flow.
It could also be a 5600SXT. Probably not. I don't think you would see "2300" for the SXT programming. Post a pictures of the softener and iron system controllers.

How big are your softener tank and your iron tanks? Probably one of these sizes:
9" x 40"
9" x 48"
10" x 35"
10" x 40"
10" x 44"
10" x 54"
12" x 52"


You are going to want to test your raw and maybe your post-iron filter water. I suspect your iron filter needs some attention, since the softener was receiving the iron that the iron filter should have dealt with.

When your pump runs, what is the minimum on time? That gives a clue as to the pump size. Also, you did not mention adjusting the air precharge when you cranked up the pressure switch. You probably did that, but if not, you need to do that. Not doing that is hard on the pressure tank.
 

Mihomeowner

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The limiting factor is the pump. If the pump will easily build 70 PSI, there is no reason you can't have 50/70 if you want it. At higher pressures the tank holds less water, but the pump also puts out less water, so the cycles should be about the same.

CSV's have caught on. Some installers have used a CSV on every pump they install for 25 years now. But many installers don't really know how pumps work and therefore do not like CSV's. While others understand the CSV makes pumps last longer and use smaller and less expensive tanks, which is WHY they don't mention a CSV.

Thanks for the great info. Yes my pump doesn't seem to have any issues getting to 70 PSI. Once I get this issue fixed with the water softener, I'll be hitting you up for help ordering and installing the CSV!

It could also be a 5600SXT. Probably not. I don't think you would see "2300" for the SXT programming. Post a pictures of the softener and iron system controllers.

You are going to want to test your raw and maybe your post-iron filter water. I suspect your iron filter needs some attention, since the softener was receiving the iron that the iron filter should have dealt with.

When your pump runs, what is the minimum on time? That gives a clue as to the pump size. Also, you did not mention adjusting the air precharge when you cranked up the pressure switch. You probably did that, but if not, you need to do that. Not doing that is hard on the pressure tank

My tank is 9" x 48"

It says 5600SE on the motor head. I'll take some pictures tomorrow. Attached is a shot from the owners manual describing the step I am talking about. I bought this house a few months ago and am just now trying to figure out the water stuff. I have had two water guys come over and both said everything is good to go, neither really cared about it though. One of those guys might have set the 2300. I'm not saying it's a wrong setting, I'm just trying to figure out if it's correct or not.

Yes the iron filter is next, hopefully after I get the issue with the water softener resolved. There was some iron build up in the valve when I disassembled it. There wasn't much, but there was some. I uploaded a couple pictures that I took as I was taking them apart in case I forgot how to reassemble it.

I'm not sure what you mean by this question: "When your pump runs, what is the minimum on time?"

Yes I did adjust the air charge of the tank to 48 psi.

Thanks for you help guys!
 

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Reach4

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I'm not sure what you mean by this question: "When your pump runs, what is the minimum on time?"

When you use water, and your pressure drops to 50, the pump goes on. If you then stop using water, the pressure rises to 70, and the pump shuts off. How long does that take? 33 seconds, or what?
 
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