Lorentz Solar Helical Pump Question

Discussion in 'Pumps and Tanks Well Forum & Blog' started by V8Vega, Oct 18, 2013.

  1. V8Vega

    V8Vega New Member

    Messages:
    9
    Location:
    Arizona
    Hello. I have a well just drilled & capped in S.E. AZ. The depth is 340', Static is 242", & the casing is 6". I also have 6 new Schott 240 watt PV panels. After hours of banging my head against the wall, I've decided to buy a Lorentz helical. My question is should I go with a larger pump for reliability? I've been told to just get enough pump, but I was wondering if a more robust pump would last longer. I was looking at the PS1200HR since I have the panels.
    Thanks, this is a awesome forum...even it's a little over my head. :confused:
  2. Texas Wellman

    Texas Wellman In the Trades

    Messages:
    530
    Location:
    SE Texas-Coastal
    Are you completely off grid? Do you plan on pairing your pump with a generator or grid power?

    I install and use the Lorentz solar pumps and I like them very much. Just make sure you are good on the pump curve and set-up your panels the right way.
  3. V8Vega

    V8Vega New Member

    Messages:
    9
    Location:
    Arizona
    The well & future cabin are off the grid on the E. side of my property. My neighbor on the W. side plans to bring in PWR at some point. When & if that happens, any future buildings will be on the grid with solar back-up.
    All the curves will work, so I will just go with the PS1800HR for the added flow. Will this pump fill a pressure tank that will sit about 50' from the well, or will I need a cistern/pressure pump?
    Thanks a lot for the help!
  4. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,461
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    That pump can build 820’ of head. That is enough to lift from 242’ and still develop 250 PSI more pressure. You don’t want more than about 60 PSI in the pressure tank, so be sure and use a good pressure relief valve incase the pump doesn’t shut off when it should.

    Back in the 60’s and 70’s they had a helical well pump we called the Peerless Wiggletail. One of the problems with the helical shaft was the tremendous pressure they would build when the pressure switch failed to shut them off. I saw where several galvanized tanks blew out the bottoms and went through the roof of the well houses like a rocket. The well houses looked like a bomb hit, and the tank was usually out in the pasture a few hundred feet.

    So you don’t need a “cistern or booster pump”. But an extra pressure relief valve or two might be a good idea.
  5. Texas Wellman

    Texas Wellman In the Trades

    Messages:
    530
    Location:
    SE Texas-Coastal
    Let us know how you like the set-up. I have never used that particular model of Lorentz so I'm curious how you like it.
  6. V8Vega

    V8Vega New Member

    Messages:
    9
    Location:
    Arizona
    Will do Wellman. I appreciate all the help from you guys more than you know. The property is 300 miles from my house, so this is a project. What is the formula to figure out how far horizontally that spare 250 PSI will travel? I didn't know any of these "solar" pumps delivered this kind of performance.
  7. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,461
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    1 PSI equals 2.31 feet of lift. Horizontally there is only friction loss of the pipeline. At 10 GPM flow, 1 ¼” PVC pipe has .42 PSI loss per hundred feet of friction loss. Which means you could go 59,523 feet or 11.27 miles with 250 PSI.

    Vertically for every 2.31 feet you need 1 PSI. You can always use larger pipe if friction loss is a problem.
  8. Texas Wellman

    Texas Wellman In the Trades

    Messages:
    530
    Location:
    SE Texas-Coastal
    Valveman,

    Theoretically speaking, what would happen if you had 59,524 feet of horizontal pipe? Would water still flow out at the end? Inquiring minds want to know. :confused:

  9. Reach4

    Reach4 Active Member

    Messages:
    2,233
    Location:
    IL
    Yes, but only 9.999 GPM. :rolleyes:

    Like the museum tour guide who said the fossil was 65,000,007 years old because he was told it was 65 million years old when he started 7 years ago.
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2013
  10. V8Vega

    V8Vega New Member

    Messages:
    9
    Location:
    Arizona
    Awesome news! My lot is about 400' wide from the well to my future house site. I was having nightmares about booster pumps & such. I bought the property on the west side ( 2 surveys here ) 2 weeks after I drilled the well. You just made my day Valveman!
  11. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,461
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    In that length of pipe you would still get the 10 GPM out the end, but you would have used up all 250 PSI and there would be no pressure left. You could fill a pond or a cistern though.

    With only 400' of pipe, I would put in a couple of good pressure relief valves just in case the pressure switch got stuck in the closed position, because that pump will deliver LOTS of pressure.
  12. V8Vega

    V8Vega New Member

    Messages:
    9
    Location:
    Arizona
    WTH?....It's impossible to buy a Lorentz pump around here. I can't understand why a company would make it so hard to purchase their product. :mad:
  13. valveman

    valveman Moderator Staff Member

    Messages:
    4,461
    Location:
    Lubbock, Texas
    That is the way all pump companies used to be. They want you to go through an installer. Probably not a lot of DIYers doing deep set solar pumps, so they don't want to upset their dealers.
  14. Boycedrilling

    Boycedrilling In the Trades

    Messages:
    42
    Location:
    Royal City, WA
    A distributor talked to me a couple of years ago about selling & installing the Lorentz pumps. They weren't interested in selling to a pump installer in the trade that was just going to install one. Too much to go wrong. They wanted you to go to their pump school first to even be considered to be an installer. They did not feel that this was a product for a professional to install without specific training, let alone a do-it-yourselfer.

    If I went thru their training, then they would refer other pump installers to me, for me to design and install the system.
  15. V8Vega

    V8Vega New Member

    Messages:
    9
    Location:
    Arizona
    I have an acquaintance who works for a large well drilling/pump servicing & rebuilding company. He works on the big municipal wells around here and is going to see about getting a pump for me. No wonder the well guys near my property don't use Lorentz.
  16. craigpump

    craigpump Member

    Messages:
    939
    Location:
    ct
    If its that difficult to buy, imagine what service will be like.
  17. Texas Wellman

    Texas Wellman In the Trades

    Messages:
    530
    Location:
    SE Texas-Coastal
    When I was reading your thread I was wondering where you were going to get your pump from. As far as I know, Lorentz is a dealer-only pump and they keep it locked down very tight, of which I am glad.

    Look for a similar Grundfos, it should do just as good of a job and has support for AC back-up built into the pump.
  18. V8Vega

    V8Vega New Member

    Messages:
    9
    Location:
    Arizona
    I really hate the fact you can't rebuild the Groundfos pumps. I'm going to use a few pumps before my time here ends, so I was planning on having a rebuild sitting on the shelf after I buy & drop the second.
  19. Texas Wellman

    Texas Wellman In the Trades

    Messages:
    530
    Location:
    SE Texas-Coastal
    The 4" pump ends can be separated from the motor if I'm not mistaken. They are exactly like the regular domestic pumps (centrifugal). The pump ends should last a long, long time. The motors are what gives out, and there is nothing you can do to fix a submersible motor that I'm aware of.

  20. V8Vega

    V8Vega New Member

    Messages:
    9
    Location:
    Arizona
    I just got the price for the pump & controller - $3,800.00....YIKES! Groundfos, here I come.
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