Looking into a Conventional Shower Pan

Discussion in 'Shower & Bathtub Forum & Blog' started by johnfrwhipple, Jun 11, 2014.

  1. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    I ran across this article published by Dave Gobis this morning (http://www.lfishman.com/kb/kb-ConventionalShower.pdf). I skimmed through it looking for testing info from Cecil Hunt on weep holes. What a surprise when I read from Dave Gobis that shower's pre-slopes, Niches and Benches all need a slope to them....

    No shocker there.

    A good review of the plain jane shower.

    So how do you test a plain Jane shower? Keep reading, lets look into what the basic requirements are of this most popular and number one method of building a shower is here in Vancouver and the rest of North America for that matter.
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2014
  2. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

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    That is like suddenly discovering that water flows downhill
  3. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    LOL

    A good review HJ.
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2014
  4. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

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    Well, let's see, the niches are about 3" deep, so at 1/4"/foot, that's all of about 1/16" difference front/back. How hard is it to run your flap of Kerdi into there and make it slope 1/16"? If you use the shelf, how hard is that to set in place with a 1/16" slope in it? As opposed to a shower pan, how much liquid water hits into the niche? How much of that little flows off the tile rather than soak in? If you have smooth tile and make the slope much more, stuff starts to slide out on its own. Surface membranes are a bit more forgiving than mudbeds that can accumulate moisture.
  5. RedShoecounterbalance

    RedShoecounterbalance Stay away from ladders

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    Jimbo, a niche or sil or similar detail needs a pitch. Yes its A small detail in some cases, but required by all basic human common sense regardless the topical water proofing.

    Nice back peddle though, it did not fall on deaf ears..

    Furthermore, i'd argue a topical membrane is "less" forgiving?

    Subpar advice ?
  6. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    It's easy to block Jim's posts - check out my signature line for more info.
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2014
  7. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    This morning I will be checking on my newest project. A huge walk in shower barrier free with the tub inside the shower zone.

    I feared that a large puddle would be left behind from the flood test. I poured in two gallons of water yesterday and after two hours roughly one gallon of water left the shower via the one working weep hole.

    Lets see what today brings.

    I imaged a puddle roughly 3' wide by 1.5' across. And 1/4" plus water still in the shower at the drain connection.

    [​IMG]
    Photo Source


    Start of test. I swept up the crap on the floor and filled two one gallon water buckets.

    [​IMG]
    Photo Source

    Both buckets poured in so they splashed the entire floor area. This photo taken after ten minutes.

    [​IMG]
    Photo Source

    This photo after 1 hour 50 minutes. I was done with the concrete repairs outside the shower at this point and headed home. Heading there now to check the drain rate.

    When I left only one weep holes was working. The water was above the bolts on the clamping drain. I suspect the water level will be level with the top of the clamping collar and that all the lower weep holes are compromised by the plumbers glue.

    Lets see.
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2014
  8. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    [​IMG]

    I pulled this image off of the internet and it shows protecting the shower drains weep holes with a coffee filter. Not sure I like this approach at all since the coffee filter will compress and tear under the weight of the mortar.

    The drain shown is a classic California Hot Mop Style drain. It has no weep holes at the underside of the top collar.

    Only three bolts.

    A poor design. Many of these jobs in California the the drains top is set while the hot mop is still fresh and the weep holes get completely plugged.
  9. RedShoecounterbalance

    RedShoecounterbalance Stay away from ladders

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    Do i sense a tear out and full noble rebuild coming? !!!!!! if anyone can find a way or reason for that id say its YOU!! that is one cheap ugly drain for a hi end curbless project...
  10. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    The drain will be this on.

    [​IMG]
    ACO tile insert drain - Photo Source

    I'll just install over top that cheap ugly primary drain. Opened up the weep holes today in the AM. Shower had a load of water in it. Above the bolts like I thought. After I opened up the eight surface weep holes it drained slowly.

    Cam back at day's end and there was water to the left of the drain like I thought.

    I might just save this install.

    Unless when I lift the membrane back I see something I don't like.
  11. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    When I got to the job site yesterday morning after leaving the shower to drain for roughly 17 hours it looked like this.

    [​IMG]
    Photo Source


    Not much of an improvement and easily still a gallon of water left behind. People wonder why their shower floors look wet all the time. Look at the picture above. That is why....

    I opened up the eight weep holes on the top collar of this shower drain with my Weep Hole Opening Tool and booked it to the next job (had to lay down some NuHeat Heating). On my way home I stopped in to look. After roughly seven hours the shower looked like this.

    [​IMG]
    Photo Source


    I had made a prior assumption that the shower would puddle to the left and my predictions where proved right. So some minor tweaking and this shower is nearly ready for a brand new ACO Channel Drain !
  12. RedShoecounterbalance

    RedShoecounterbalance Stay away from ladders

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    So you are going to correct the preslope then?? Pull back liner and feather some skim coats???

    I realize this preslope pan/liner is not your doing as you stated it was prepared before you......

    This is a great example of why i prefer a thinbed pan......once i flood test and drain it and verify my work drains properly( unlike here) there is no concern of a long term moist wet mud pan......

    if you had not done all this double checking and preventive maintenance as you have, imagine how musty/moist that pan would be all the time? Efflorecense? Mold? Mildew? And fingers pointing at someone!!!!!!!!


    Hard to pic up where others leave off isnt it!!!!

    I wanna see how you connect the aco to that flange ring and keep it low enough for that entry!!!!

    Nice big shower looks like a fun challenging project....
  13. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    Not going to show that here.... Jim will have a Ca-Nip-Shit

    Can you say "Fein Multimaster" ? LOL - The plumber should have flipped the rough in. It's OK the fix is easy and takes roughly 3 minutes.....
  14. RedShoecounterbalance

    RedShoecounterbalance Stay away from ladders

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    Ok the top flange flips on that model too !!!! Or just a new flange & aco adapter and You will be well low of grading concerns... Never used that drain body style wtf do i know!!

    So the flange or weeps are causing the pool and not a low point in the preslope ? I would think it was a low spot but again wtf do i know!! Humbled every day!
  15. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    The ACO shower drain I use and recommend the most is the plain edge model. Typically it fits over their own primary shower drain but many times I use another company's shower drain as the rough in or primary shower drain.

    I'll need to shave the top inch of the mud ring off this drain to get the elevations to work right.

    Will see next week. I'll be prepping the tub for the Stone (going to be under-mount) and protecting the shower liner from harm.

    Roofers are there next week so the inside of the home will be noisy!
  16. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    It's coming out. I found out that the membrane was cut and patched in one corner. By entry. Guess what type of adhesive was used to seam this LynCar membrane?
  17. RedShoecounterbalance

    RedShoecounterbalance Stay away from ladders

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    Another reason to NOT use conventional pan liners. The High VOC solvent based adhesives. Are crap. And nasty. The real issue is they cure solid. Once cured it no longer has any tack or grab , if you dont adhere it properly with full clean coverage the first time., you will have leaks and a tear out...
  18. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    I think the plumber installed the LynCar liner with ABS solvent not the proper bonding crap. Shit Show.

    The NobleSeal CIS will look a lot prettier. I wonder if I'll get paid for this extra work?
  19. RedShoecounterbalance

    RedShoecounterbalance Stay away from ladders

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    Now you can also ditch the hot mop drain altogether!!

    Very hard to take on a project like yours and trust the plumbers or others work before you arrived. A lot of times i turn that work down if i cant start from point A. Even when i need the work or $. I call it ethics.!
  20. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple Bathroom Design & Build - North Vancouver, B.C.

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    I'm going to fix it and bill the builder. If he pays great - if not then I'll chop it up to a lesson from the school of hard knocks. In my quote I mentioned fine tuning the showers liner. I did not expect to find ABS glue and a crappy seam when I pulled it back.

    Next time I'll word things better. I like the approach now anyway better. No dicking around with a NobleSeal CIS LynCar hybrid.

    All Noble - all the way....
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