Looking for a layout review

Discussion in 'Plumbing Forum, Professional & DIY Advice, Tips & ' started by NH, Nov 27, 2011.

  1. NH

    NH New Member

    Messages:
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    Location:
    NEW HAMPSHIRE
    I have attached a layout for my 2nd floor bath I'm remolding. Could I get some feedback as to the layout. The room is 8'x9'. Thanks

    Attached Files:

  2. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

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    quote; Could I get some feedback as to the layout

    I suppose it might upset you if I said EVERYTHING is wrong with it. If you install it that way, the inspector might collapse on the floor from laughing before he condemned it. Get a plumber.
  3. NH

    NH New Member

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    Location:
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    ok, I'm a DIY'er, where can we start as to what is wrong. keep in mind this is a 1750-1800 house and this is a remodel of the smaller bath that was there.
  4. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

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    Location:
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    Start with the fact that since that vertical vent is existing that means there may be a bathroom on a lower level, which would mean you could not connect your new bathroom directly to it. As far as the drawing is concerned we can begin with the two sinks which do not have vents and the traps are under the floor. The "vents" for the tub and shower are horizontal under the floor and are interconnected below the floor creating "secondary drains" for the tub and shower when one of the drains plug up. If that is a cleanout fitting between the sink and the other fixtures' connection it will be inaccessible and useless. The age of the house is irrelevent, and the previous piping may NOT have been installed properly.
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2011
  5. NH

    NH New Member

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    yep, my drawing is incorrect, I was planning on 90deg up for both sinks, and into the traps that would be above the floor. The tub and shower vents would be on a upward angle so as not to provide a drainage point. I can seperate these vents if need be. It is a cleanout fitting and would be under the sink accessible though a panel in the bottom of the vanity in case of any backups once everything is below the tiled floor. I have 18" between floors to work with and 2x8 floor joist/beams(post and beam construction). the main vent is cast iron 6" with a T-fitting that the old bathtub/toilet/sink drained into. I'm adding 1 additional sink and shower. I planned on 3" or 4" pipe to the toilet with 2" main run to the sink/shower/tub and 1-1/2" through the floor for the sinks and to the shower/tub drains.
  6. Tom Sawyer

    Tom Sawyer In the Trades

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    3,128
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    Maine
    You can't do anything that is on that drawing. DIY is one thing but without a basic knowledge of drainage and venting I think you are in way over your head. Where are you in NH? I probably know someone that can help you out.
  7. NH

    NH New Member

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    southern NH Manchester area
  8. cacher_chick

    cacher_chick Test, Don't Guess!

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    Every trap must have a vent, and the vents must be vertical until they have reached a point no less than 6" above the flood rim of the highest fixture. Once above that level, the vents can run horizontally, but must be pitched back to the drain.

    If it is convenient, one can connect vents together in the attic to avoid needing multiple roof penetrations. Again, proper pitch must be maintained on the horizontal piping.

    Connections to a horizontal drain must be made with wyes, never tees.
  9. jimbo

    jimbo Plumber

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    8,997
    Location:
    San Diego
    The two sinks are not vented at all. Any vent pipe less than 42" ABOVE THE FLOOR must be at a minimum 45º angle. It is not sufficient to merely take it off the lateral at an anbgle...the pipe must rise at a 45º angle. Since you say it is remodel, we might assume that the main waste stack, with vent up to roof, is existing, and might be proper. But it the second floor bathroom was added later than the main plumbing, they might have ignored that code. Surely on a remodel like this, the inspectors will expect everything to be up to code. You can usually grandfather existing, but as soon as you touch it on a remodel, it is now "your baby" and not your grandfather!!!!
  10. Tom Sawyer

    Tom Sawyer In the Trades

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    Maine
    In Manchester you can bet the inspector will be all over whatever you do. That extensive a remodel will require that all the plumbing in the house be brought up to code. Give Purington a call, he's in Concord but does a lot of work in Manchester. He will treat you right.
  11. NH

    NH New Member

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    Location:
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    I can vent the two sinks as they are less then 30" from the main waste stack that runs up next to the chimney and I have an area I can run the vent pipes. The old plumbing that was there had no venting other than the main waste stack, I'm planning on adding venting to the remodel. Do the new vents need to go through the roof or is venting into an unfinished attic area ok? And what's the max from the trap I can go for the vent which I will do at a 45deg up angle? I'm also going to seperate the tub and shower and 45deg up angle vent those through the exterior wall and up to the attic area as well.
  12. Tom Sawyer

    Tom Sawyer In the Trades

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    3,128
    Location:
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    Best of luck to you. Now if you will excuse me I have some brain surgery to perform. I read the book yesterday.
  13. NH

    NH New Member

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    7
    Location:
    NEW HAMPSHIRE
    This has been a 3yr ongoing 2nd floor renovation of a post and beam 1750 house where as I'm sure some of you well know nothing is straight and as for level well mines been collecting dust in the garage with no use in that part of the house. I'm not saying this would be easy and I could do this in a weekend, but it's also not "Brain surgery" either. The first frontiersmen didn't have a map at first but buy asking there fellow explorers they were able to see how to go, where to go, and what was the best way to get to where they wanted. I just want to get to the end of a finished bathroom and if it means taking another year to do it bit by bit so be it. The responses so far have been very helpful, and it seems I should go back to the drawing board and maybe only show the main runs and add in branches from there. I'm going to work on a floor plan thinking that might help in showing all the components locations and proximity to one another.
  14. cacher_chick

    cacher_chick Test, Don't Guess!

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    The problem is that there are a lot of ways that this can be done wrong.

    We don't want to steer you wrong, but trying to explain to someone how to plumb a house on the internet is beyond what most of us have the time or patience for. Look around and study the thousands of projects that have been tackled here in the past, and you could learn a quite a bit.




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  15. NH

    NH New Member

    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    NEW HAMPSHIRE
    Thank you I will be revising and re-submitting in the near future as I am at that point of the renovation. I thought I had the layout worked out in my head while I was doing other aspects, but see I have more brain storming to do. I do have some other areas I had planned on doing later but will work on now until I finalize this layout. Thank you again to all.
  16. Tom Sawyer

    Tom Sawyer In the Trades

    Messages:
    3,128
    Location:
    Maine
    What I can tell you for sure is that the plumbing inspector ain't going to explain how things should be, he's just going to tell you it's wrong, tear it out and do it over again which gets real expensive compared to having someone that knows what he's doing. Oh yes, and just to set the record straight, brain surgery requires a medical license and plumbing requires a plumbers license. What you are attempting to do is IMO way way way beyond your knowledge and abilities. You DIY guys think you can run down to the Home Depot, pick up a copy of plumbing 123 and go ahead and plumb an entire house. I have a copy of that book and believe me, you can read it cover to cover and you still will have no idea how to plumb a house. Cacher_Chick is right. A project of that magnitude can not be figured out on a forum. This and any other forum is not the place for that kind of project. In fact, there is no place for that kind of project. You are tying into hundred year old plumbing the condition of which is unknown and will be unknown until you start tearing things out. No plumber would bother with drawings either. Until all of the framing is exposed your drawings are little more than guesswork.

    BTW, ask any surgeon and I'll guarantee you that they will all tell you that plumbing is at least twice as difficult as brain surgery is.
  17. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

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    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    Normally in construction, you would get asigned to a plumber and be allowed to install copper or PEX supply lines after they have determined you can pick things up and set them down where the other guys could find them.
    Pretty soon they see if you can dig a ditch that runs straight and with grade (going the right direction) And then maybe after a year or so, they will bother themselves to teach you a little about waste and vents, how and why they are done a certain way, what the local plumbing inspector likes to see before he puts his signature on the bulding permit. His name will be on that doc for eternity. It's not that they don't think we aren't brilliant, it's just that it takes a lot of time to cut out fittigs, drill the holes in the right places without having to replace wall and floor systems that we may have hacked up.


    Here is a nice link to Bert Polk's plumbing tips
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2011
  18. jimbo

    jimbo Plumber

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    8,997
    Location:
    San Diego
    We cannot overemphasize that you are opening a can of worms. Not specifically knowing inspection practices in your area, I can tell you that ALL the plumbing, including existing shower, toilet, etc, ALL the electrics, and ALL the structure, including damage that may have been done to the structure by previous plumbing.....ALL of that is fair game on this remodel. You might consider getting in a plumber, and if necessary a general contractor....pay for their time to evaluate where you are at.
  19. Tom Sawyer

    Tom Sawyer In the Trades

    Messages:
    3,128
    Location:
    Maine
    Jimbo, I do know the plumbing inspector in Manchester. I know him quite well. He is a by the book guy. No mercy.
  20. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    26,488
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    quote; Thank you I will be revising and re-submitting in the near future as I am at that point of the renovation.

    Actually, that is the key to the whole project. You make a drawing and submit it to the building department. They reject it and you revise it and resubmit it. This process repeats until they are satisfied with the DRAWING. Then you, or a qualified plumber, installs it. Finally an inspector looks at the installation and determines whether it was done like the approved drawing. If so, he approves it, if not it is rejected and has to be redone.

    Here is an example of when the process goes awry;
    Several years ago I was installing the plumbing for bakery departments in grocery stores. All of the installations were basically similar. About the fourth one, when I took the isometric to the building department, they said I could NOT install the system that way, regardless of how it had been done previously. When I asked, "How can I install it then?", they said to take it over to "Joe" at the adjacent desk. Joe then proceeded to revise my drawing. When he finished he had "true" flat vents on all the floor drain lines. When I protested, "You cannot do that", he said, "Yes you can under the new code". Since the revisions were simple to incorporate into the piping we had already installed, I told him, "okay, send the inspector out this afternoon". When the inspector arrived he took one look at the installation and rejected it because of flat vents, but then I showed him the approved drawing. He looked at it, then at the installation, and asked, "Where is the telephone?" He called his senior inspector and told him, "These guys have an installation with flat vents and a drawing approved this morning showing them. What should I do?" The boss told him, "Have the person who approved the drawing, make the inspection and approve it." I told the inspector that as soon as he left, concrete was going into the trenches, regardless of whether he approved it or not. He did, but 30 minutes later he came back and said, "As of this minute, we are back on the old code". Six months later on another job, he said, "Aren't you the same guys who did the grocery store bakery? Can you redraw the isometric for the installation, because ALL of the paperwork for that job has disappeared."
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