Long Sweep versus Short Sweep Question

[Bird Doo Head]

Good Day Everyone!
I have a project coming up where I'd like to 'elevate' a toilet waste line. Right now, it runs horizontally in a very low ceiling storage closet. The closet is going to be removed. Ideally, the horizontal pipe will be raised to be in the joist bay. This way the ceiling height in the existing room and the former closet can match.

My question is: Is a long sweep required for a toilet that's very close to the horizontal pipe? A plumber told me LS was required because the flange is close to the ell. Another told me it was not allowed vertical. I've searched the forum and, to be honest, got myself all confused about what's best here.

Since I tend not to find good words to describe stuff, I've attached a really rough sketch of "Existing" & "Proposed" (Apparently not such a good artist either! I just noticed I forgot to show on the drawing that there are no fixtures below the toilet line either. It goes down to the horizontal 4" (via wye & 1/8th bend) below the basement floor. It's the last thing on the way out of the house. A clean out is at the base of the stack.)

A long sweep ell will not allow the pipe to remain hidden in the bay, as the joists are nominal 4 x 6's. If I use a long sweep 90, I will have to lower the ceiling in the existing room and the former closet to hide the pipe. (Rather a large project- I'd prefer not do this.)

If I use a regular DWV ell (or-ideally- a street ell with a toilet flange that fits over the male end) I can hide the pipe in the joist bay and do minimal ceiling drywall work. (Yay!) I'd also like to avoid replacing the ell with a 4 x 3 closet bend because the room with the toilet is tiled. Three inch items will all fit the existing hole. With 4", I'd have to enlarge the hole in the tiles & sub floor. (Of course, no spare tiles!)

I don't know if it affects the decision about which ell to use, but the toilet is a 1980's variety not water saving. Of course, if it ever breaks, the replacement would be a water saver.

Thank you all very much for your input on this decision!
Paul

 

[Jimbo]

An "exception" to the sweep rules is the closet bend. Enter the part number 329 in the search box: http://www.charlottepipe.com/Documents/DimensionalCatalogs/Plastic_Pipe_Fittings_DC-DWV%28609%29.pdf

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Bird Doo Head]

Hi Jimbo

I looked at the part (4 x 3 Ell) but I don't understand what you're telling me. Is it that it is OK to use a long sweep? (Actually a normal 3x3 short sweep would fit in the bay, if that's allowed & would work.)
Thanks,
Paul

 

[Cacher_Chick]

Don't install a short or a long sweep. Instead use a 4x3 closet bend.

 

[Bird Doo Head]

Thanks for replying!
I was trying to avoid the 4 x 3 so I don't have to enlarge the hole in the tiled floor to fit the 4" part. I'll surely find a way to wreck some tiles along the way!
But, if a 3" elbow is not good for the job and a 4 x 3 closet bend is what's proper; I'll open the floor hole.
Thanks Again for your help. It is greatly appreciated.
Paul

 

[Basement_Lurker]

If your current flange sits on the tile now as it's supposed to, then using another 3" flange is perfectly fine so you don't have to mess around with cutting the tile back to accommodate a 4" pipe since you will be piping from below anyways. I have a feeling that they lowered that closet ceiling for a reason, so you had better be sure you can actually install the way you plan without destroying floor joists. And in a drainage system, long bend fittings are generally preferable to short bend ones....however it is not always possible or better to use them in every situation.

 

[hj]

Enlarging the opening is NOT a problem, since the new flange will cover any "overcutting" of the tile. The 4x3 bend, (#330, NOT the #329), will do the job, and you can cut the spigot riser to match the floor level. The one your store will have will probably look different than the #330, but will be a better pattern for your installation. I am assuming you meant the drain line will be between the joists, not under them. If it is under them, then you do need the #329 and a short piece of 4" pipe up through the floor.

 

[Bird Doo Head]

Thank You Basement_Lurker & HJ!

For the ceiling, I appreciate the warning! It is just 2x2's and a couple of tree branches holding up the closet ceiling. I don't know why the original contractor went so low, but the original installation was done (I assume) in the 1910's or 20's when this house received the gift of indoor plumbing. Maybe access for pouring lead was a problem or maybe he was the owner and went with the materials he had on hand. Who knows, but I'd bet there was a good reason! This house has lots of "I wonder why...." (As are, I'm quite sure, some of my jobs!)

I did write it wrong, the drain line will be between the joists.
I'll go ahead, be brave and cut the tiles, since #330 appears to be the proper choice. It never dawned on me, in my not-so-infinite wisdom, that the flange and toilet will cover goof ups. Some of the tiles extend past the toilet base, so I will be methodical and careful when I cut these. (Maybe score the glazing with a small stone- like a Dremmel to give it a break line.)

Thanks for the reference to the proper fitting part number. I viewed the cut-sheets and can see the difference. I appreciate everyone's help. Now I'm confident the system will work properly when I'm done.

I want to wish to all who read this a Happy, Safe & Blessed New Year!
Paul

 

[Jadnashua]

Depending on the tile you have, it may require a diamond to cut. Some porcelain is very hard, and will laugh at most any other material. A diamond cup wheel on a grinder will make quick, fairly neat work of enlarging the hole, but quite dusty, so take precautions.

 

[hj]

A diamond wheel in a 4" angle grinder will cut the tile, just make a lot of short straight cuts, then chip the tiles out, where you could not cut all the way through them. (in calculus, you learn that ANY circle is just a bunch of very small straight lines anyway.)

 

[Bird Doo Head]

Thanks Guys!
That's a great idea to get diamonds involved! Sometimes I don't see what's smack, dab in front of my face. I just used my dry-cut 4" to pre-score some concrete for a clean break out.
Paul

 

[Basement_Lurker]

I can't understand why you would cut in a 4" riser when you have excellent access from below and an existing hole for a 3" flange.

 

[hj]

Because they do not make, or at least no one stocks, a 3x3 spigot closet bend.

 

[Bird Doo Head]

What's clocking me in the head here is the fact that the joists are nominal 4 x 6. If I had a more modern house with 2 x 8's or better, I'd be in business and not have to bother you guys so much! Even if the sub floor, underlayment & tile were just a mere 1" thicker ...!

I searched and studied the cut sheets Jimbo & HJ referenced. I also 'temporarily' bought several fittings from the Big Orange Box to experiment with. The only bend that will allow the pipe to remain in the joist bay will be a 3" street directly into a flange. It is Charlotte #302. (The flange will glue over the fitting, leaving 3" for material passage.)

I did find a 3" long sweep street ell that I can order (for $35.00). The cut sheet dimensions indicate I'd be flush with the bottom of the joist at the ell and about 1 1/4" below at the stack. So, this messes me up. The 4 x 3's give similar results.

I think, unless you guys tell me it won't work, I'll try the street ell. If it fails to perform, I'll bite the bullet and re-plumb (and lower the ceiling in the entire room.) I don't know if it has an effect on the performance, but the vent is the stack, which is about 6 feet from the ell. The only thing above is a 1 1/2" from a 1 1/4" P-Trap on a lav sink.

Thanks everyone for all of your help on this one!

 

[Basement_Lurker]

The simplest thing you can do is go with a 3" flange; then you can use a street fitting if you need to. If space is really tight, then you might be able to use an offset flange, but really, furring the joists isn't such a huge ordeal.

 

[Bird Doo Head]

Thanks!
I'll give the 3" street a try.
Paul