Leak around base of new toilet install 2 weeks later.

[Steve42]

When we were working on our bathroom remodel, the old cast iron closet flange was broken, so I had a handyman friend come by and look at it and he decided that because the old floor was mud and lathe 1" thick plus the tile, we should cut the pipe and remove the old flange, and then use a replacement closet flange. Once we were finished installing the Hardiebacker, thinset and tile, the top of the pipe was about 1/4" below the surface of the tile.

I went to Lowes and bought an Oatey Twist N Set Cast Iron Replacement Closet Flange. I was able to get the top few inches of the closet pipe cleaned enough to install the Twist N Set Closet Flange in place. We actually removed so much of the residue that we had to thread the rubber gasket upward a bit to get a grip on the sidewall of the pipe. The flange was resting comfortably on the floor with no wiggle and I turned it as tightly as I could by hand.

After I had the flange tightened, I used a Bosch Glass and Tile bit and drilled four holes through our new tile floor and then used screws to fasten the flange down. The screws reached into the subfloor.

After I was done, I used a standard wax ring and closet bolts to install the toilet. There was just a touch of a gap (1/16 to 1/8") between the base and the tile, so I installed toilet shims. Heeding advice I had been given on an earlier replacement, I did not caulk immediately so we could catch any leaks and not wind up with floor damage later.

This week, I noticed some water beading around the base of the toilet, and when I flushed it, the water increased.

I have not pulled the toilet yet, but I wanted to see if there is any chance that anything more is wrong than the wax seal being compromised? If I purchase a Fluidmaster Extra Thick Reinforced Wax Ring with Flange, should that be sufficient to resolve the issue?

Thanks,

Steve

 

[Gary Swart]

I don't think you made a good seal. When you set the toilet on the wax ring, you should have pressed it down until the base of the toilet touched the floor. Instead you shimmed it up and this prevented the toilet compressing the ring as it should. Get a new ring, NO FUNNEL, and reset the toilet. This time put your weight on the toilet and force it to compress the wax.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Redwood]

I have never used a Twist N Set closet flange...
Nor will I!

 

[hj]

WHY was there a gap between the toilet and the floor? If the bowl was sitting on the flange, then you squeezed ALL the wax out when you put the toilet down.

 

[Steve42]

I can put a new wax ring in, and put more weight on it, but I'm a little concerned/confused because the whole point of shims is to make sure a toilet is level if the floor isn't perfect. Are you saying all shims are bad? I also see that you feel the funnel is a hindrance as well.

After I bought the Twist and Set flange, I watched this video at This Old House. Two things come to mind: 1) Neither Lowes nor Home Depot carry the compression style flange used in the video and 2) if you check at about 3:41 in the video, you can see there is still a gap in between the toilet and the floor after he has tightened the nuts onto the closet bolts (see the photo below).

I did make absolutely certain the flange was flat on the floor when I was mounting it. I'm assuming at this point that we didn't put enough weight on the toilet.

Do I need to look seriously at locating a flange of the type used in the video (I can check the plumbing supply houses in the next town)? Because it mounts outside the pipe, it would mean chiseling out some tile and Hardiebacker, and cutting out some 3/4" plywood to make the opening large enough to accept the saddle. It would also involve making my wife unhappy at the prospect of backtracking further than just pulling the toilet.

EDIT: After posting this, I was finally able to locate a picture of that flange that was used in the video... it's an Oatey 165 Cast iron flange. Oatey's web site does not specifically state that it is appropriate for mounting on cast iron pipe, it says "plastic or heavy weight, no hub or service weight soil pipe". Does cast iron fit into that description?

 

[Steve42]

It's back!!!

Reviving this thread because after 10 months of repair, the problem is back...

Here's what happened:

We pulled the toilet and replaced the wax ring. At around the same time, my wife observed that the lavatory in the same bathroom was draining slowly. We snaked the lavatory drain to clear the clog and the lavatory started draining properly. With the new wax ring in place, the leaking around the toilet had ceased. Our assumption was that we had resolved two unrelated issues.

Fast forward to this week. I observed a few days ago while shaving that the lavatory is draining slowly again. Yesterday morning my wife came out and told me the floor was wet around the toilet base once again as well.

Here's the best description I can give of how the drains are configured in that bathroom:

The lavatory uses a P trap which enters the wall. Inside the 4" wall, the drain line makes a 90 degree right bend and heads toward the soil stack. Inside the wall this line is almost parallel to the floor with very little drop, if any. This is one of the original fixtures in the house and has been in place for approximately 40 years.

The toilet is located approximately 2.5 feet to the right of the lavatory. I haven't been under the house in a year or so, but I believe the waste line makes a bend under the floor and then connects to the soil stack below the lavatory's drain connection.

Is it possible that the wax seal was still not sufficient after replacing the ring last time, but when we cleared the clog from the lavatory drain pipe, the venting was sufficient to allow the toilet to flush and clear the lines more quickly, thus not giving the wastewater ample opportunity to back up and escape the (apparently) compromised wax seal? If so, now that we have a clog somewhere in the DWV stack, that wax seal leak becomes evident again.

Am I barking up the wrong tree? Would it be wise to have the DWV snaked from the roof vent to make sure the line is clear to the main waste line? Are there any checks we can run to determine where the clog might be before we get an electric snake involved?

 

[Hackney plumbing]

I prefer to clean branch drains from the roof. I clean dirty arms from inside the house. IMO waxseals with the plastic horn should be illegal.

Typically in my area the trap arm for the lavatory would be connected to the stack with a sanitary tee in the wall above the floor but it could have its own separate connection to the building drain/stack under the house and be indiviually or revented.

I doubt your slow draining lavatory and the toilet leaking are related....but it could be. In either case the wax seal is bad under the toilet and must be replaced.

Plunging the toilet while the main drain is full of water can blow out the waxseal. If the main drain is clogged and the waxseal is bad under the toilet,when the lavatory is used water will leak out the lowest opening......thats the bad waxseal.

I have seen 3 and 4" sanitary tees close themselves off due to the lavatory draining at the transition from horizontal to vertical. These cloggs are easier to clean from the vertical vent if its accessible.

I do not know how your pipe is installed. No one on the forum does. Without some detail info all we are doing is giving typical answers based off our experiences.

The way plumbing is installed can vary greatly from one region or city to the next and also at different periods of time things were done certain ways.

 

[Jadnashua]

If the toilet rocks in the slightest, the wax seal will fail...it is smushable, but it isn't resilient so once you compress it by rocking one way, it doesn't go back, leaving a gap.

If the drain line gets clogged, even partially, when you flush the toilet, you are trying to dump a lot of water all at once. If there's a partical clog, the head (or pressure from the height of the water column) will seak out the easiest path - probably from the compromised wax ring.

If the toilet flange is not installed on top of the finished floor, you may need either a jumbo wax ring, or to stack a couple (or, the right thing to do it fix the flange!).

There should be a vent line coming off the trap arm going up before the drain turns and runs horizontally in the wall. Without one, it can suck the p-trap dry when you flush the toilet.

 

[Steve42]

I do not know how your pipe is installed. No one on the forum does. Without some detail info all we are doing is giving typical answers based off our experiences.

The way plumbing is installed can vary greatly from one region or city to the next and also at different periods of time things were done certain ways.

What more detail can I provide to help? I've seen every pipe in question because this bathroom was gutted last year to remodel.

The lavatory P-trap is chromed pvc. Outside the wall, it inserts and attaches to a galvanized pipe nipple. Just inside the wall, there is a galvanized 90 elbow, then a horizontal galvanized pipe which T's into the DWV pipe.

The toilet has an Oatey Twist N Set closet flange inserted (very tightly) into a cast iron waste pipe. The only thing I can't recall at the moment is whether the waste pipe goes down and makes a bend to T into the drain pipe or if the waste pipe goes straight down past a T for the DWV and then to the main drain line (and I don't know that this would affect troubleshooting one way or the other). I didn't go under the house for the remodel, so it has been longer since I saw how it was configured.

If the main drain is clogged and the waxseal is bad under the toilet,when the lavatory is used water will leak out the lowest opening......thats the bad waxseal.

So.... if the water leaks around the seal when the lavatory drains, I may have a main drain clog. Am I safe to assume that it leaks when the toilet flushes but not when the lavatory drains, then I am actually troubleshooting two separate problems once again [wax seal and dirty arm]?

Thanks,

Steve

 

[Steve42]

If the toilet flange is not installed on top of the finished floor, you may need either a jumbo wax ring, or to stack a couple (or, the right thing to do it fix the flange!).

Howdy Jim... I recognize you from the tile forum.

One thing I can say unequivocally... the flange sits square on top of the tile floor. I drilled the holes in the tile my very own self to screw the flange down to the floor. First time I'd ever drilled through tile. That's one reason I didn't go with an extra thick/stacked ring solution when the first one failed... shouldn't have been necessary when both the flange and the toilet had a good level floor to sit on. I guess I'm going to try to find an extra thick without the funnel. If not, then I will get two standard ones.

 

[Jadnashua]

If the flange is on top of the floor, any standard wax ring should work - one with the funnel might cause it to leak. If the toilet is not solid, any rocking will compromise the wax ring and leave it open for leaking should the conditions exist. Since the outlet of the toilet is smaller than the opening of the flange, it generally won't leak (waste anyway), unless there's a (partial or full) clog.

Try setting the toilet on the flange without the wax ring...does it sit flat on the floor, or is it sitting on the flange? If it sits on the floor, but rocks, note where you need shims, pull it, install the wax ring, and shim it, ideally, in one step. I've been known to tape my shims in place when dry fitting the toilet. If done carefully, neither the shim nor the tape is visible once the toilet's down and there's no chance of rocking it and compromising the seal.

 

[Cacher_Chick]

Try setting the toilet on the flange without the wax ring...does it sit flat on the floor, or is it sitting on the flange? If it sits on the floor, but rocks, note where you need shims, pull it, install the wax ring, and shim it, ideally, in one step. I've been known to tape my shims in place when dry fitting the toilet. If done carefully, neither the shim nor the tape is visible once the toilet's down and there's no chance of rocking it and compromising the seal.

DING DING DING DING.... I think we have a winner...


You already stated that the sink drain is not pitched properly. Your wife probably has long hair too.

If the toilet flushes and drains properly, you are not likely to have a main line clog.

It does not matter if the toilet or the flange are perfectly level.
What does matter is that the toilet can never wiggle in the slightest once it is set.

 

[Hackney plumbing]

What more detail can I provide to help? I've seen every pipe in question because this bathroom was gutted last year to remodel.

The lavatory P-trap is chromed pvc. Outside the wall, it inserts and attaches to a galvanized pipe nipple. Just inside the wall, there is a galvanized 90 elbow, then a horizontal galvanized pipe which T's into the DWV pipe.

The toilet has an Oatey Twist N Set closet flange inserted (very tightly) into a cast iron waste pipe. The only thing I can't recall at the moment is whether the waste pipe goes down and makes a bend to T into the drain pipe or if the waste pipe goes straight down past a T for the DWV and then to the main drain line (and I don't know that this would affect troubleshooting one way or the other). I didn't go under the house for the remodel, so it has been longer since I saw how it was configured.



So.... if the water leaks around the seal when the lavatory drains, I may have a main drain clog. Am I safe to assume that it leaks when the toilet flushes but not when the lavatory drains, then I am actually troubleshooting two separate problems once again [wax seal and dirty arm]?

Thanks,

Steve

Clean the lav drain again and reset the toilet. I wouldn't use a waxseal with a horn.

 

[Runs with Bison]

I'm with Jim and the others on this. The shims are there to prevent it from rocking while allowing the bowl to sit level. Any rocking and the seal will break because wax doesn't have elasticity: it compresses, but does not regain its shape when the pressure is relieved. That means a gap and a leak if the toilet rocks. I broke the seal on one in my home by standing on it while replacing an improperly installed lighting fixture next to it...and I'm not a heavy person.

I have one toilet that requires a lot of shim because the floor is not level (don't point at me, I didn't build the place, a "professional" did...apparently one with a crooked eye and without a square or level to his name and who apparently had an allergy to insulation...I keep fixing his screw ups.)