Laticrete Linear Drain install

Discussion in 'Shower & bathtub Forum & Blog' started by dedalus, Mar 23, 2014.

  1. dedalus

    dedalus New Member

    Messages:
    14
    Location:
    NSW
    Hi all,
    This is my first post here, so bear with me.

    I’m planning my shower reno and intend to install a Laticrete linear drain. I’ve read up on all the Laticrete data sheets, but still have a couple of questions.

    The Laticrete install video shows the drain being set on the morter bed, and THEN the outlet to be connected to the waste using a no-hub connector. Is that right? Shouldn’t the connector be made first and THEN the drain set on the bed? Otherwise how would you retrofit the rubber coupling?

    Second question is: is a rubber coupling the best way to connect the outlet to the waste? I’m worried that a rubber clamp might degrade in time. After all, once the drain is set and hydro banned, I wouldn’t want to be worrying years later about a defective connection to the waste pipe. Is there a better way to connect the drain?

    Finally, I’m worried that metal lath in the morter bed might rust in time. I’m using Laticrete 3701. Wouldn’t stainless steel mesh be better, or is that overkill?

    Sorry if these are dopey questions. Love this forum, by the way.
  2. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    21,801
    Location:
    New England
    I think that they assume you'll have access from below to tighten up the clamps. FWIW, in the USA, that connection should be made with a banded (reinforced) connector (has a ss shield around the thin rubber seal), but that still leaves you with the same problem of how to tighten it down to seal things up. Not sure how you'd make the connection if you can't get access from below unless you had enough depth to use the coupler on the drain with a short stub of plastic pipe on the other end, then glue that short stub into a coupler to the rest of the plumbing below.

    Assuming you're using the hydroban to make a surface membrane, if everything is working properly, there should be no water getting below it, so rusting lath isn't an issue. Have never seen SS lath, but there are a few companies that make a plastic one, if you're worried about it rusting (shouldn't be an issue).

    Sorry, don't know much more about it. You might check and ask that question over at www.johnbridge.com, they have lots more tilers and tile pros over there than here.
  3. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

    Messages:
    3,781
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    The Laticrete Linear drain is not one of my favourite linear drains. There are lots of things to worry about in my opinion with this drain and Laticrete's installation guidelines.

    Your fear over the rusting metal lath is one that is on my fear list as well. Have a look at this eWarning on Rusting Hot Dipped Galvanized Lath.

    You might have noticed I sell the ACO drains. I find in the end the ease of cleaning to be the ACO's finest feature. Make sure you understand how your drain is to be cleaned and what type of hair catchers exist in a drain before committing to one for your shower.
  4. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    21,801
    Location:
    New England
    There are millions of showers built with metal lath in them that last many decades. For the most part, the lath is in areas that do not get wet. No moisture, no rusting. But, like galvanized water pipe, yes, it can and does get wet and rust because the water going through it has dissolved oxygen in it. As to galvanized nails...you really want double-dipped, hot galvanized nails if you want the highest resistance to rusting, and I've not found them in coils for a nail gun. They may exist. Keep in mind that the act of cutting your lath to size exposes the raw steel, and it can start to rust from there. I have some leftover lath sitting in my garage on the floor...it happens to be centered, and I drive over it. It's been there for nearly 10-years, and it's not rusted. Gets salty snowmelt and crud dripped on it. Buried in a setting bed, underneath a waterproof membrane, it's not an issue unless you have a leak. IF you have a leak, you'll have other, much bigger issues to worry about.

    As to that unbanded coupler, in the USA, the only place those are allowed is underground, which, might be the situation if you were building a shower on a slab on grade, but not over a wooden subfloor (and I still don't see how you'd ever tighten them there). Above ground, you must use a banded coupler, and you must have access to it to initially torque it down properly. If you'll not have access, you'll have to combine its use with a glued connection, using a stub of plastic pipe (pvc or abs, your choice to match the existing materials) and glue it in place as you set the drain down. You have one chance...measure and cut carefully! Once the glue sets, it's over, you don't get another chance unless you can tear things apart from below.

    Keep in mind that the link referred to is John's website, and is his opinion, whether right or wrong, you decide. The quality of foreign made (mostly from China) products is spotty...some good, some bad. Blame us, the consumer for driving down the price - it takes money to make a quality product and to test and build it properly. When you see it for 1/2-price at a big box store verses a good supply house, there may be a very good reason why! Those that know, try to pick a quality product.
  5. dedalus

    dedalus New Member

    Messages:
    14
    Location:
    NSW
    Thanks all for your comments folks. They've helped clarify my concerns.

    What I've decided to do is join the outlet pipe from the drain to the waste pipe before placing the supporting morter bed under the drain. I'll carefully ensure that the height from the flange to the floor (which will be a sheet of cement fibre board over the hardwood floorboards, with a sheet of membrane over that) is 38mm which is in the Laticrete specs. After I get the drain clamp tightenened down, I'll pack in the morter and make a final levelling adjustment, then lay the rest of the morter acoss the floor. I'll follow Laticrete instructions by placing the lath half way into the morter bed.

    I take it the stainless steel lath is a bit overkill, but nevertheless if I can buy some I'll use it.

    Australian plumbing standards mandate a 1:80 fall to a shower drain, and I'm going with that. It's a lesser fall that 1/4 inch per foot that you guys use, but I figure with large format porcelain tiles a 1:80 will result in a lower slip factor.
  6. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    21,801
    Location:
    New England
    Hardwood should not be in your subflooring stackup, it just moves too much (and is a pain to put screws or anchors in)! How are you obtaining your sloped floor? Here, all of the manufacturers of cbu require it to be bedded in thinset, then screwed or nailed down, and not typically used in a shower pan. Keep in mind that the liner must be sloped to the drain.

    Maybe a diagram of your intended stackup of materials might clarify what's planned so more useful advice can be given.
  7. dedalus

    dedalus New Member

    Messages:
    14
    Location:
    NSW
    John, I looked at the ACO drain drawings and from what I can tell, it seems that it utilises a seperate drainage (puddle) flange.

    "Connect an appropriately sized drainage flange to the pipework. ... After the screed has cured, the waterproof membrane is then applied to the screed and continued on to and turned into the flange .."

    I'm only going on my understanding of their drawing, but isn't the critical point here the SIZE (or more precisely the LENGTH) of this flange? When water seeps along the top of the membrane which is placed over the screed, it is supposed to flow into this drain flange, since the membrane is turned down into it. But if this flange only exists around the drain outlet there would be the issue of seepage along the membrane at the far ends of the drain, ie distant from this flange. If the screed plane is level across the drain at right angles to the slope, how does the seepage water get across to the puddle flange?

    I guess you'll say "well it will, eventually". But I'd say that seems a less efficient way than having a full length flange built in to the drain.

    With the Laticrete drain, there is no drainage flange, or to be more correct the drainage flange is an integral part of the drain, and all water from the membrane goes directly into the drain. Am I reading this correctly?

    I might add that most linear drains I've come across over here (except Laticrete's) depend on a seperate puddle flange around the drain pipe. They seem an aweful lot like the ACO and many cost only about $150.
  8. dedalus

    dedalus New Member

    Messages:
    14
    Location:
    NSW
    I'm presuming that the floorboards will be protected from any interaction with the morter bed by both a sheet of fibre cement board nailed to the floor, and covered with the polethylene sheet.
  9. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    21,801
    Location:
    New England
    CBU is not structural, which is why it is usually specified to be installed with thinset underneath it, not to hold it down, but to fill in any gaps. Hardwood moves MUCH more than softwood, and specifically plywood, with moisture changes in the seasonal changes...it's not a good thing when dealing with tiled stuff that is brittle and doesn't expand/contract anywhere near what hardwood do.
  10. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

    Messages:
    3,781
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    Dedalus - the debate over the drain style is a long one.

    Some drains are primary shower drains.

    IE

    Schluter
    Noble Company
    Some ACO
    Some Ceraline
    Quick Drain USA

    Some drains are secondary

    Some ACO (the ones I like)
    Some CeraLine
    Infininty
    Many knock offs


    The big question is how are you going to clean it? How will the drain act long term (will thin-set and grout below the tile surface go nasty!) Trimming the tile around the Laticrete, Schluter or Quick Drain USA products is key for a good looking install.

    I would install the Laticrete drain with a flashing made by me onsite and not trust a straight liquid waterproofing tie in.

    I often recommend people to use the Quick Drain USA or Schluter Drain. Don't care for Noble Company's or Laticrete's at all - it's the adjustment of the strainer or grate that I hate the most. Hair fathers in my opinion. The flanged drain from ACO is primary shower drain and this drain is not one I push hard as well.

    Typically I ask people t visit my blog page when they are planning a drain purchase. I get them to make a donation and we work out the planning by phone calls.

    If I can sell you an ACO drain I will and the donation amount is deducted from the drain price. If you go with another product I keep the donation for the time spent on the call.

    If you go the Laticrete route look into trimming the drain with a Schluter tile edging. Reinforce the liquid membrane with something at the drain connection and changes in plane. Let your mortar and thin-set dry out a good week plus before Hydro Banning. You do not want water blisters durning your flood test - don't rush this step!

    Good Luck.
  11. dedalus

    dedalus New Member

    Messages:
    14
    Location:
    NSW
    Thanks to all who replied to my original post. It's been most helpful. I think I have the waterproofing sorted, and I'm now down to choosing a suitable linear drain.

    The prices for linear drains here in Australia vary a lot. I'm guessing they do over your way also.

    I believe the 2 main recommended drains over your way are the Laticrete and ACO. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't they made from 304 stainless?

    I can get a generic 304 s/s drain here for $165AUS, and the better 316 s/s for $265Aus. ($1Aus = 93centsUS) I have examined these and they seem perfectly sound, welded in one piece with 1.2mm thick walls and a welded-on drain outlet.

    I'm left wandering if there is any compelling reason not to buy one of these more reasonably priced drains. The Laticrete having a built-in flange all around is the main advantage I can see with it. It would make the application of the hydro ban easier, for sure. But apart from that, is the inbuilt flange such a big deal? The ACO drain doesn't have one.

    I'm thinking a good puddle flange would be sufficient and hydro-banning into that.
  12. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

    Messages:
    3,781
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    Laticrete or ACO for an Australian Shower Build

    I just noticed you are from Australia.

    I love your waterproofing codes down there. As I understand it you Aussie's need to leave your liquid waterproofing installs a week before flood testing. This is something we should adopt here in North America.

    Between the flanged edged Aco and the Laticrete drain that is a tough call. I do not recommend the flanged ACO very often - only on specific installs.

    I would love to know more how you address the change in plan on your job - where the floor meets the wall. I have seen some guys using duct tape. Others chalking. Some seal gasket and tape. What is your method? How will this affect the tie in to the Laticrete drain?

    JW
  13. dedalus

    dedalus New Member

    Messages:
    14
    Location:
    NSW
    John, I'm just a DIYer, albeit a fairly experienced one. This is my first shower renovation. I'm basically trying to follow instructions from Laticrete data sheets. I'm employing a licensed installer to help me on the project.

    I'm not really sure how the guys do this stuff over here, not being in the trade. I just put out the job to tender on a trade quoting site and the first 2 quotes came in this morning. The first was $350-$750, and the second was $10,000. Gulp!

    The Laticrete flanged linear drain is $730 over here - so I'm going with an unflanged 316s/s generic for about $230. The install procedure is fairly clear (I've checked on several sites).

    To answer your question on bond-breaking, I've no idea what is the usual method in this country. Laticrete specs suggest silicone covered with liberal coatings of HydroBan, OR, alternatively a tape embedded both sides with hydroban. I'll decide on which depending on the width/depth of any gaps at the floor/wall intersections. Plus the installers recommendations.

    What concerns me is whether to worry about the wire mesh embedded in the 3701 morter bed. Laticrete recommends this, but I'm trying to source some stainless steel mesh, on account of I'm a totally obsessive sort of guy who worries a lot about shower leaks. (heh heh in case the attempt at woody allen humour not obvious).

    My project specs, designed to describe the job to potential installers (and hopefully NOT to piss them off), is <a href="http://users.tpg.com.au/epbyrne/shower">here</a>

    Thanks again to those who've commented on this.
  14. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    21,801
    Location:
    New England
    If you can get it, KerdiFix is a great sealant...very strong once cured and it remains flexible. I'd consider KerdiFix as a permanent material, but would not consider silicon to be. Kerdifix cures at about 1/8" per day (from the edges in).
  15. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

    Messages:
    3,781
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    InfoTile.com - Articles on Australian Waterproofing

    Dedalus careful you don't get advice from Canadians and Americans mixed up with your required Australian code.

    The silicone bead you read is something like a "Cant Strip" when they do torch on roofing. This needs to be installed first. Before the Hydro Ban. I would do that and use the reinforcing fleece Laticrete sells.

    You also mentioned skipping the flange version of the Laticrete Drain. Now you are into the drain style I like - The Plain Edge. These install over a two piece clamping drain. So your install specs will change with the new drain choice.

    You will need to let your mortar base cure at least 3 days to 30 days depending on what you pick. Then install your Hydro Ban and wait another week before doing your leak test. You boys down under use moisture meters for this step.

    Don't cut anyone a check until you have a total handle on this install. You also might need to incorporate a water stop and waterproof the entire sub flooring of the bath. Lots to look up. Your code is better than ours so be careful how you research the required info.


    Go read the 34 posts here under Waterproofing: http://www.infotile.com/advicetopiclist.aspx

    You will get a great review of the Aussie Code Book on Showers.

    [​IMG]

    Here is a diagram from ACO Australia. The waterproofing lines could be your Hydro Ban. I would use the approach to the left since the one to the right does not show a pre-slope detail.
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2014
  16. dedalus

    dedalus New Member

    Messages:
    14
    Location:
    NSW
    Thanks so much for that link, John. It contains some great tips and a good overview of waterproofing to Australian standards.

    From my reading of it, hydro ban must be a class 3 polyurethane liquid membrane. Is this correct? Assuming so, information in one of the articles in that link confirms Laticrete's installation specifications which say:

    " .. 12 mm bond breaker shall be installed to all wall/floor junctions, hob/wall junctions and movement joints where the membrane is bonded to the substrate as per clause 5.11.5 for a class 3 membranes. A “paintable” urethane or silicone sealant may be used for the installation of a 12 mm bond breaker."

    Therefore, I intend to apply a neutral cure silicone bead of 12mm to all change-of-plane junctions and cover that with 2 coats of hydro ban.
  17. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

    Messages:
    3,781
    Location:
    North Vancouver, BC
    Laticrete Fabric Info by Greg Vergara, Tileartist, Sherrodsville, OH

    Now you are getting there. I like to add the reinforcing mesh and make two coats three. I find I do not get the proper coverage with only two coats unless I really slop it on. Laticrete sells a mini roll of the reinforcing fleece. It looks like this:


    I looked up some pictures for this fabric and found this one posted on the John Bridge forum:

    [​IMG]

    Source: http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=129266&stc=1&d=1348013790
    Post By: Greg Vergara, Tileartist, Sherrodsville, OH
    Page: http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=103163

    Man that is funny! Not since elementary has some one teased me about my Great Uncle. Did not find any other pictures there so I looked harder and found this;

    [​IMG]

    Source: http://www.tilingforum.co.uk/attachments/imageuploadedbytapatalk1378553212-591234-jpg.6251/
    Post By: AMA Tiling, Professional Tile Fixer, Dromore, Omagh, County Tyrone
    Page: http://www.tilingforum.co.uk/threads/weber-sys-protect-tanking-system.196/page-2

    The Laticrete fleece or fabric looks like the stuff on the left. The others are other manufactures similar to MApei's MapeBand. You will find these as well should be allowed for your change in plane corners. I do not think Laticrete makes one for Hydro ban as yet....

    I think these added measures are to meet stronger enlogation requirements. I think this is what that 12mm bond breaker does (helps with the enlogation requirements).


    Good Luck.

    JW
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2014
Similar Threads: Laticrete Linear
Forum Title Date
Shower & bathtub Forum & Blog The 8mil Vapour Proofing Show Down - Laticrete's HydroBan Sheet Membrane vs Schluter's Kerdi Sunday at 2:16 PM
Shower & bathtub Forum & Blog What is the smallest tile that can be installed over Strata Mat by Laticrete? Dec 2, 2013
Shower & bathtub Forum & Blog Laticrete thinsets Mar 20, 2013
Shower & bathtub Forum & Blog Educating the Higher End Client of what to look for in High End Linear Drains May 4, 2014
Shower & bathtub Forum & Blog Installing a Linear Drain: Residential Building Magazine Kitchen & Bath Issue 2014 Apr 8, 2014

Share This Page