Las Vegas Water Softener Selection

Discussion in 'Water Softener Forum, problems, installation and r' started by John Vegas, May 23, 2012.

  1. Tom Sawyer

    Tom Sawyer In the Trades

    Messages:
    3,316
    Location:
    Maine
    Being Thanksgiving and all I guess I have to eat Crow. I hadn't read closely enough. If that's just the drain line, it's fine.
  2. John Vegas

    John Vegas New Member

    Messages:
    57
    Location:
    Las Vegas

    Thank you Gary, but I need a little clarification. Are you suggesting to keep the hose connected the wall, and then connecting the new tubing to the 7000SXT, and then using some type of coupling to connect the hose to the tube? Is it possible to get a fitting to connect to the 7000SXT to convert the drain fitting from the 1/2" tubing connection to a 5/8" hose connection? That would be easiest, but since the big box stores are closed today, not sure if I can get one there or if I have to go to a plumbing supply house. I am thinking it might be easier to remove the fitting that screws into the copper and just replace the fitting with a brass fitting where I can connect the new tubing (?).

    Happy Thanksgiving and thanks all for your time. Ditto, can you please check my programming question on Page 5?

    Thanks, JS
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2012
  3. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    You can connect the vinyl to the 7000 or the new black drain line to the 7000 and then to the vinyl or replace the vinyl with the new drain line and connect it to the 1/2" copper. You just need the right fittings I mentioned above.

    I would connect the vinyl to the 7000 if you have enough of it to do that, or use as much of the new drain line as needed to go from the 7000 to the vinyl. There is no reason to remove/replace the vinyl as long as it can not kink closed. It allows you see color or air if any of either is in the drain water and the new black drain line doesn't.
  4. John Vegas

    John Vegas New Member

    Messages:
    57
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    Water softener is installed! No major issues, just a few minor:

    1. It was hard to cut the 1" copper with one of those twist and turn cutters, it kept running on me and getting off track, not sure why, because on the first side it was really easy.

    2. Putting the resin in the tank is a real PITA. One bag came with a slight rip in it, so I was trying to get all the material out of the box, etc. I also left a very little bit in the bag when I didn't shake it real well. I probably have about 1.98 CF of resin.

    3. The cheap black drain line is junk. I am going to use the 1/2" ID clear hose and switch that out. I was able to change the fitting to the copper drain line, so now it is 1/2" in all direction.

    4. The fitting that attaches to the Fleck for the drain line has a minor drip. It seems like if you tighten the adapter, it then put the drain line on top, instead of the side. Might need a few more wraps of teflon.

    5. The Fleck is very large and very loud. With the flexible connector (Falcon SS), it does protrude from the wall quite a bit. I have a large garage, but might be a concern if space was at a premium.

    6. I ran it through each cycle and everything seems to work. I didn't get an excessive amount of resin out of the drain (a very little bit in the first 1-3 second when in bypass), so I assume the tank pipe was seated properly, etc. Speaking of resin, that stuff has a very weird texture when you touch it, slimy sorta.

    I'll post pictures when I download them tomorrow.

    Thanks again! JS
  5. John Vegas

    John Vegas New Member

    Messages:
    57
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    BLFC and more!

    It looks like this supplier changed the DLFC size because the items on the back of the unit are crossed out with a Sharpie pen (see photo--kinda sketchy!). When I pulled out the BLFC it has "25" stamped on the plastic (TINY writing!), so maybe they switched it out. They are not open till Monday, so I will call them then. They have it programmed for a 40k unit (it is 2 CF) with a 16 min brine refill cycle -- so I assume with a nominal 2 CF system, it is using 6 lbs of salt per cubic feet because it is sending 4 gallons to the salt witch equals 12 pounds of salt (4 gallons at 3 lb of salt /gallon) (I think I finally get this.).

    What i DO need help with is setting it up for 4 bls of salt per 1 CF of resin. What so i set the "C" of the softener at if I set the BF is set to 10 (for 2.5 gallons of water to use 8 pounds of salt). Do I set "C" to 8 * 3800=30,400 or say 30? Do I need to adjust any of the other settings?

    I am also kinda stressing out about not getting 100% of the resin in the tank. Was it a big deal if I lost maybe one cup of resin in a 2 CF system? I don't really want to take it all apart again just to order some more resin and add it in (is that being crazy?).

    Sorry if I am rambling, but I hope these post help someone in the future. I wish this was not my first install as I learned a lot about both plumbing and of course softeners.

    Thanks again, JS


    Fleck Label.jpg
  6. John Vegas

    John Vegas New Member

    Messages:
    57
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    Here are some photos of the 99% completed install (I still need programming HELP!). I want to change the junk black tubing out with some clear 1/2" ID hose that is less prone to kinking. I forgot to put the clamp on the tubing that connects to the Fleck, but it seems solid on the barbed connector anyway. The Falcon Stainless Steel push connects are nice, easy, relatively inexpensive to use and bend nicely into shape. You can see the cr@p Culligan waiting to be sold.

    JS

    Fleck 1.jpg

    Fleck 2.jpg

    Fleck 3.jpg
  7. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    So ya lost some resin.... it's not a big deal unless you think it is.

    The black drain line is the same PE tubing as the "clear" as you call it, unless you mean to use clear vinyl which is clear and a real no no.

    You do know that there is no pressure in the drain line right? The PE stuff is what you should be using although I don't like colored because you can't see the water in it. That goes for brine line too. Which is also PE.

    You should write on the label what BLFC and DLFC they installed since they didn't.

    To change the salt dose requires you to change the K of capacity number accordingly. You don't set the salt dose per cuft, you set the brine refill minutes for the total number of lbs. at 3 lbs/gallon of refill water. And if you are correct with the 30,400, you round the 30,400 up to 31 K and refill for that amount and round up any fraction of time.

    I sure don't like how far from the wall the softener is because of the over sized (1.25" valve) and extremely physically large 7000 valve.
  8. Tom Sawyer

    Tom Sawyer In the Trades

    Messages:
    3,316
    Location:
    Maine
    Why do the tanks need to be near the wall? Do they get lonely out there LOL The flexi supplies are keeping it further than the valve is. No problem with loosing 2 cups of resin.
  9. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,946
    Location:
    Ontario California
    Any chance you get to knock the 700, you will, even though I have already shown that the electrmechanical 5600 and 2510 are the same size. Fleck makes a 90 degree kit part # 61601 that will tighten that install up considerably. Would you like me to post a picture of my system? It is butted up against the wall.

    Why not start knocking the flex lines while your at it, like Tom said, they are the item that is causing the install to be so far away from the wall, not the "oversized 1-1/4" valve".
  10. John Vegas

    John Vegas New Member

    Messages:
    57
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    Can someone help with setting the "C" value if I want to use 4 lb/cf salt dosage?
    Thanks,
    JS
  11. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Guys... you should note that I don't suggest using the flexible SS lines as y'all do but... the 7000 keeps most residential size softeners farther away from the wall than other valves. Plus the fact that this 2.0 cuft softener does not need a 1.25" valve.

    JS you input the actual number of lbs in the Clack control valve. I.E. for it to use 4 lbs/regeneration, you use the down arrow button to change the factory default setting of 9.5 lbs to 4 lbs. If you want 4lbs/cuft, then do the math for the number of cuft of resin you have times 4 and change the default 9.5 lbs to that number.
  12. John Vegas

    John Vegas New Member

    Messages:
    57
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    The tank standing away from the wall is not an issue in my home because of the large sized garage (three cars) and with the configuration of the door to the house, it sits nicely in the corner near the water heater. I could have bought the vertical connections to the Fleck, but I didn't because A) I am furgal and they are not necessary and B) I just see them as another leak point.

    My immediate question is on the programming. I THINK I understand this, but just to confirm (Gary, I don't have a Clack as you indicated in you post):

    1. I want to use 4 lb/CF
    2. My "C" value should be set to 8 lb * 3800 = 30,400 say 31 for "C"
    3. I set my BF as follows--I need to dissolve 8 LB of salt, which requires 2.5 gallons of water. With a BLFC of .25, that requires a BF setting of 10.67 or say 11.
    4. My hardness is 18 from the water purveyor. I was thinking of setting to 20 to accommodate any fluctuation.

    My supplier set the B2 value to Zero, should I set that to 5? Do I need to change any other settings like the RR, etc.?

    Thanks, JS
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2012
  13. John Vegas

    John Vegas New Member

    Messages:
    57
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    I asked my supplier to supply me some more resin to put in the tank, so I wll be able to sleep at night :)

    I know there is no pressure in the line. Lets beat this drainage line horse to death. The supplier sent vinyl black tubing, NOT polyethylene (PE as you call it). I was thinking about using the braided PVC that they sell at the big box stores and that was installed on the old Culligan. It seems like the braided PVC will not kink nearly as easily at vinyl. Regarding PE, I could not find it locally in 1/2" ID dimension. The brine line is also not PE, but it seems to be black vinyl.

    I included some pics of each for reference. Is the braided PVC something good to use? The black vinyl seems cheap and it seems like it tends to kink really easily.

    Braided PVC.jpg PE Tubing.jpg Black Vinyl.jpg


  14. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,946
    Location:
    Ontario California
    Many of our dealers are partial to Funny Pipe http://www.homedepot.com/buy/toro-100-ft-funny-pipe-53338.html It is also handy to have around for sprinkler repair work. instead of hard plumbing sprinkler heads, use this and you will never have to worry bout breaking pipe under ground again due to lawnmower hits, kids playing etc. It is pressure rated, bends easily, and uses the barb fitting avalable at the big DIY HD store.
  15. John Vegas

    John Vegas New Member

    Messages:
    57
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    Yes, I use something similar for my drip irrigation in Las Vegas (in fact I think it is the same things in the generic version, and the "pipe" that I used for the Culligan while it was leaking (I would fill up a bucket of water while the Culligan was in use and was leaking, so at least I captured some of the leaking for irrigation water). The Funny Pipe does have a terrible tendency to kink, at least with irrigation work.

    So now there are four options--PE, vinyl, braided PVC and "Funny Pipe!"

  16. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,946
    Location:
    Ontario California
    The funny pipe (only the funny pipe, not the other brands) is a thick walled, fairly rigid tubing that does not kink easily. The other brands kink as soon as you attempt to bend them. I would never recommend the other cheaper brands. Funny pipe is also fairly expensive, probably 3-5 times more expensive than the other junk.
  17. John Vegas

    John Vegas New Member

    Messages:
    57
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    Just to keep things simple, here are my current setting from the supplier and my proposed setting in ( ). This is for a 6 lb / cf salt dosage.

    1. DF (Display Format) = Gal (Gal)
    2. VT (Valve Type) = St2b (St2b)
    3. CT (Control Type) = Fd (Fd)
    4. NT (Number of Tanks) = 1 (1)
    5. C (Capacity) = 40 (26)
    6. H (Hardness) = 25 (22) (Note, 25 came from supplier, my water hardness is 18, using 22 as a safety factor)
    7. RS (Reserve Selection = SF (SF)
    8. SF (Safety Factor) = 10 (10)
    9. RC (Fixed Reserve Capacity = 0 (0)
    10. CR (Variable Reserve) = 0 (0)
    11. DO (Day Override) = 94 (15) (Note: Strange it was set to 94, I would have just set it to OFF)
    12. RT (Regeneration Time) = 2:00 (2:00)
    13. BW (Backwash) = 10 (10)
    14. BD (Brine Draw) = 60 (60)
    15. BW (Backwash) = 0 (0)
    16. RR (Rapid Rinse) = 5 (5)
    17. BF (Brine Fill) = 16 (8)
    18. FM (Flow Meter Type) = t0.7 (t0.7)

    This all assume a 3 lb/cf salt dose and a BLFC of .25 (confirmed today). If I DO make programming changes, when do you make them? right before or after a regeneration cycle or do you change the programming when the softener is getting close to a regen, change the settings, then regen?

    Comments? Thanks, JS
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2012
  18. ditttohead

    ditttohead Water systems designer, R&D

    Messages:
    1,946
    Location:
    Ontario California
    low clearance.jpg

    Setting changes can be made anytime, just press and release the regen button when you are done reprogramming it and it will regeenrate tonight, resetting all the calcs to thenew programming. Try the low salt for at least a few months. It will work for most, but not all people. You have a considerable reserve with your settings so this will maintain slightly higher quality than a true 3 pounds per cu. ft. system. The real problems with ultra low salting come when people program it too tightly, leaving very little reserve or even running the system hard occassionally. I posted a picture of the 7000 with the 61601 90 degrees attached. These can be used to bring your valve in much closer to the wall. And ignore the one naysayer who hates the 7000, it is one of our best sellers as it nearly eliminates the potenital problems of flow restrictions on the extremely rare occassion that every fixture in the house is being used at the same time. It is in no way "oversized", it is properly sized.
  19. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    Your salt dose programing looks good to me although I didn't check the math.

    The opaque PE tubing in your pictures is what I suggested but they don't have the right size, but do in the 'black vinyl' 5/8" OD x 1/2" ID. Go somewhere else or order it online.

    The Funny Pipe sounds like black PE pipe. It has been used on the east coast for decades. Here it comes in various pressure ratings from 75 psi up to 260 psi. We use it to hang submersible pumps on to like 500+' and for irrigation and under ground water lines. The higher the pressure rating the thicker the wall the stiffer it gets. It's tough stuff but I wouldn't use it for drain line above ground. It is IPS (pipe) and your fittings are for CTS (tubing) as I explained before... The thinner stuff you have may be a much lower pressure rated version which means a thin wall that kinks. The black vinyl may be a thin walled low pressure rated PVC.
  20. Gary Slusser

    Gary Slusser That's all folks!

    You should take a picture from the side instead of the front. Is there a meter on that valve?

    What a PIA it would be to plumb the thing if the water line was below or coming it from either side.

    What is the retail price of those elongated elbows?

    You talk like the only part of a softener is the control valve. If the house has smaller than 1.25" water line, the 7000 is overkill and only you are now changing the subject to "flow restriction" instead of staying with the original subject of overrunning the resin's ability to soften the water. That is a function of the resin, not the control valve.
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