Kitchen Remodel Circuit ?'s

Discussion in 'Electrical Forum discussion & Blog' started by MarcH, Jan 11, 2009.

  1. MarcH

    MarcH New Member

    Messages:
    13
    I am remodeling my kitchen and am planning on putting four kitchen counter outlets on one circuit, the stove, fridge, and dishwasher on one circuit, and four can lights and the under cabinet lights on one circuit. Does this sound like a good plan with the typical load of a kitchen? Thanks for your help!
  2. Scuba_Dave

    Scuba_Dave Extreme DIY Homeowner

    Messages:
    885
    Location:
    South of Boston, MA
    Code requires 2 kitchen circuits for outlets, I believe its an outlet every 2' is required
    Plus every separate counter equal or greater then 2' in length must have an outlet
    Lots of codes for kitchen, I put my fridge on its own circuit
    Dishwasher will depend upon the draw, if it draws more then 50% of the circuit it must be a dedicated circuit is my understanding
    I fill my lighting circuits to the Max allowed, this is based on the fixture rating - not the actual bulb installed. Since I use CFL bulbs my lighting circuits are underused. So my kitchen lighting is off another light circuit - not dedicated to the kitchen
    In addition I will have 3 (20a) kitchen counter circuits
    Plus a 4th in the adjoining sunroom

    Codes sometimes differ based on your location - so you might want to post where you are located
  3. jimbo

    jimbo Plumber

    Messages:
    8,997
    Location:
    San Diego
    The refrigerator and the dishwasher EACH should be on a dedicated circuit. If you have an over the range microwave, or plan to have a countertop microwave, there should be a dedicated cirtuit for that.
  4. codeone

    codeone Code Enforcement

    Messages:
    160
    Location:
    North Carolina
    (B) Small Appliances.
    (].) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry,
    breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwellingunit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch
    circuits required by 210.1l(C)(1) shall serve all wall and
    floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop
    outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for
    refrigeration equipment.
    Exception No.1: In addition to the required receptacles
    specified by 210.52, switched receptacles supplied from a
    general-purpose branch circuit as defined in 210.70(A)(1),
    Exception No.1, shall be permitted.
    Exception No.2: The receptacle outlet for refrigeration
    equipment shall be permitted to be supplied from an individual
    branch circuit rated 15 amperes or greater.
    (2) No Other Outlets. The two or more small-appliance
    branch circuits specified in 210.52(B)(1) shall have no
    other outlets.
    (3) Kitchen Receptacle Requirements. Receptacles installed
    in a kitchen to serve countertop surfaces shall be
    supplied by not fewer than two small-appliance branch circuits,
    either or both of which shall also be. permitted to
    supply receptacle outlets in the same kitchen and in other
    rooms specified in 210.52(B)(1). Additional smallappliance
    branch circuits shall be permitted to supply receptacle
    outlets in the kitchen and other rooms specified in
    210.52(B)(1). No small-appliance branch circuit shall serve
    more than one kitchen.



    Hope these code sections help you
  5. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,006
    Location:
    New England
    The codes typically also say install per the manufacturer's instructions...many specify a dedicated circuit for their devices.
  6. jar546

    jar546 In the Trades

    Messages:
    432
    Location:
    USA
    lets clarify:

    *Kitchen counter tops must be served by 2 separate 20 amp circuits.

    *At no point along the countertop can you be more than 24" from a receptacle so they need to be no more than 48" apart.

    *If you only need 4 receptacles due to the lineal feet of your counter, then 2 receptacles on each 20 amp circuit would work best.

    *Lighting is usally 15a circuit and cannot be part of the circuit for the counter receptacles.

    *You need to know the rating of each appliance so you know how many circuits you will need. In addition as recommended above by someone else, some appliance manufacturers specify a dedicated branch circuit.

    Just make sure that your work is inspected and ask your local code official what your requirements are.
  7. Alectrician

    Alectrician DIY Senior Member

    Messages:
    689
    Two 20 amp gfci protected circuits for counter top receps. Refer can be on one of these. Refer does not have tio be GFCI protected. Run the home run there first if you choose to put it on with a counter top circuit.

    One 20 amp circuit for dishwasher

    One (in most areas,15 amp) circuit for the lighting.
  8. Lee Tanner

    Lee Tanner New Member

    Messages:
    15
    Depending on what your codes are for your area, if there is not going to be an inspection done heres the way we do it, if you can reach water and a recpiticial at the same time use GFI (I'an in mississippi) always have refigiator on its own circuit most dishwashers don't have to have a its own circuit, under the counter lights usually low voltage lights so they don't pull many amps.
  9. codeone

    codeone Code Enforcement

    Messages:
    160
    Location:
    North Carolina
    Any ever hear of ETHICS You should abide by codes and the General Statutes of your State. Just because you dont get something inspected should be no reason for you to not do Proper work Practices.
  10. Billy_Bob

    Billy_Bob In the Trades

    Messages:
    422
    In most cases, electrical codes are there to protect you, your family, and those who may purchase your home in the future, from fire or from electrocution.

    However in the case of kitchen electrical codes, a lot of this is a... You're going to be happier living in your house day to day if you follow the codes type of thing! You will not have breakers tripping and you will have the power there to run counter top appliances.

    I don't know about you, but I have lived in several older homes where if I have the stereo on and the refrigerator kicks on, the breaker trips. Or you can only use one thing at a time in the kitchen or the breaker will trip.

    Not fun to have these constant problems! :mad:
  11. codeone

    codeone Code Enforcement

    Messages:
    160
    Location:
    North Carolina
    Billy Bob, Do not get me wrong I do not condone doing work without proper permits or doing things not up to code or even above. The code is the min. to have a reasonably safe system. the reason I said Ethics or you could use "Moraly Right" is that I know there are a lot of contractors and DIY's that do not pull permits and have their work inspected.

    If you are having a problem with a breaker tripping due to overloads either hire someone to fix the problem have them pull proper permits and have their work inspected or pull the proper permits as a DIY and have your work inspected. Its for your protection.

    Mel
  12. MarcH

    MarcH New Member

    Messages:
    13
    Thank you all for the helpful info. My main question was how many countertop outlets per circuit. I know the frustration about living in an older home, ours was built in 1914 and there's only two outlets in the kitchen right now. The project is coming along great! Wiring completed in the walls and ran into the basement for hook up to the panel by an electrician. Drywall on, taped, and two coats of mud on. Third coat tomorrow and sand tomorrow afternoon. Started knocking holes in the ceiling for can lights, need to move a door, a little framing, move light switch, drywall, prime, texture, and paint...by Wednesday. That's when cabinets come. Going to the store tomorrow for more supplies, mainly flooring. Have a great weekend everyone.
  13. Chris75

    Chris75 Electrician

    Messages:
    608
    Location:
    Litchfield, CT
    why though?
  14. Billy_Bob

    Billy_Bob In the Trades

    Messages:
    422
    In my opinion, a "dream" kitchen would have its own subpanel, each counter outlet a 4-plex, and each 4-plex on its own 20 amp breaker. There can be a high concentration of energy hogs in a kitchen such as...

    Hot Plate - 1500 Watts
    Coffee and Espresso Makers - 1500 Watts
    Electric griddle - 1500 Watts
    Bread machine - 600 Watts
    Deep fryer - 1500 Watts
    Microwave - 1000/1200 Watts
    Etc.

    Compared with a living room which might have a 200 watt TV, and several 100 watt lamps (25 watts if CFL). For the living room I would wire all the outlets on one 20 amp circuit.
  15. jar546

    jar546 In the Trades

    Messages:
    432
    Location:
    USA
    Billy Bob, you can have however many circuits you want, as long as there is at least two 20A circuits serving your counter top.

    In the completely unlikely event that you had every single appliance running at the same time that you have listed above, 4 circuits would be plenty for that application even if you put your fridge on it. That is certainly a do-able setup for any kitchen remodel or new construction. Only 2 more circuits and you never have to worry about overloading breakers.
  16. Chris75

    Chris75 Electrician

    Messages:
    608
    Location:
    Litchfield, CT
    Your kidding right?
  17. Scuba_Dave

    Scuba_Dave Extreme DIY Homeowner

    Messages:
    885
    Location:
    South of Boston, MA
    How many outlets you need depends upon your counter(s) & room size. Someone posted the below diagram on another thread.
    Say you had a 6' counter & that was it. I'd put an outlet at either end & one in the middle. I don't like the look of quads so it would be a duplex. I'll actually have 3 counter circuits + a 4th circuit for the sunroom (open to kitchen)
    On one 5' counter I'll have 2 outlets - each on a different circuit
    Across the room will be a 4' counter with 2 outlets - each on a separate circuit. Then the counter that borders the sunroom will have 3 more outlets - each on a different circuit

    I've seen some high end TV/Audio setups that one 20a circuit would not be enough to supply the room. I'd run a dedicated circuit just for the Entertainment setup. When we wer hsopping for a new TV I was surprised at some 42" plasma TV's that used 500 watts!! We quickly ruled out plasma for a TV. Our 42" LCD used 205w out of the box, 95-110 watts after picture adjustment

    [​IMG]
  18. Billy_Bob

    Billy_Bob In the Trades

    Messages:
    422
    No I'm not!

    There are all sorts of different people and all sorts of different kitchens. I've seen some upscale large home kitchens with two side by side refrigerators and two ranges.

    I heard of one house (mansion) which had 60 employees (staff, maids, butlers, gardeners, etc.) working there. I heard about that 15 years ago and am still trying to figure out what all those people would do????

    For myself I only have two countertop circuits, but I am not a "Julia Child" cook by any means! (I have burned boiled chicken :( )

    Anyway the idea is to find out how the customer/person will likely be using the kitchen and design it for *their* needs.
  19. jar546

    jar546 In the Trades

    Messages:
    432
    Location:
    USA
    Scuba, just split them in half, 4 & 4. You can make it 7 & 1 if you want, as long as you have 2 separate 20A receptacles. If you know how you will be using your countertops then plan ahead accordingly. What you are showing looks good if your measurements are correct.
  20. Scuba_Dave

    Scuba_Dave Extreme DIY Homeowner

    Messages:
    885
    Location:
    South of Boston, MA
    Actually there will be 3 circuits (that diagram is not my kitchen - just an example someone posted
    I know what I typed makes it seem like a lot of circuits
    But the 5' countertop will share both circuits with the 4' counter top & the countertop that borders the sunroom. I know its more wire to run across the room, but I want 2 circuits on each counter instead of 1 circuit.
    It will be a big improvement over the 1 circuit that used to run everything including the fridge
    I seperated the fridge onto its own 15a circuit
    Then I seperated the 2 (yes only 2) outlets each onto a 20a circuit
    I then added the 3rd circuit

    We had the toaster (800w) & microwave (1100w) plugged into a surge protector & it kicked out. Turns out of course it was only 15a surge. So now the toaster is on the surge plugged into the 3rd circuit. The microwave is plugged into the 2nd circuit. Our toaster oven (1500w) is plugged into the 1st circuit
    This doesn't even count the coffee maker, cappuccino machine, pancake hotplate, blender, can opener, crock pot & other items that may be plugged in

    I think 2 circuits as the minimum is fine. But it makes sense to have 3 circuits given the appliances we use
    Usually its only when you are having a party, Christmas, Thanksgiving etc that you need the extra power. But that's what I am planning for

    This is a friends house in Ohio - over 12,000 sq ft
    I haven't been out to visit, but I am sure they have quite the electric setup
    [​IMG]
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2009
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