kitchen plumbing problems

Discussion in 'Plumbing Forum, Professional & DIY Advice' started by laris79, Oct 15, 2005.

  1. laris79

    laris79 New Member

    Messages:
    3
    Maybe someone can help me figure out a new way to drain the kitchen sink.
    I have installed a new kitchen sink along with a garbage disposal. I am having problems with the drainage system. The drain is horizontal and is at a higher level than the discharge drain to the garbage disposal. Basically it is like I am draining up hill. Any ideas??? Thanks
  2. plumber1

    plumber1 Plumber

    Messages:
    1,423
    Location:
    Florida
    drain

    how much too high are you?
  3. laris79

    laris79 New Member

    Messages:
    3
    drain

    I am 2-3 inches high.
  4. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,413
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    That's pretty common with new deeper sinks.

    You will need to get behind the cabinets and redrill in a lower trap arm.

    [​IMG]
  5. laris79

    laris79 New Member

    Messages:
    3
    How about a different desposal, Do they make one that is possibly shorter or a higher discharge port.
  6. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    27,242
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    drain

    They make tinier disposers, but probably not that much difference. We would have to see your installation before we could decide which of several possibilities might work for you.
  7. Snowman

    Snowman New Member

    Messages:
    83
    Location:
    FLORIDA
    Well, at least he got his old sink out OK. :rolleyes:
  8. desmoface

    desmoface New Member

    Messages:
    9
    Hey gang, Ironic, we are planning a new sink/counters in our kitchen and was also kicking this issue around. In measuring, our kitchen drain is about 15" below the bottom of our current countertop. The sink we were looking at is about .5" deeper than our current sink, that and the discharge of the disposal we are looking at (insinkerator pro 77ss) will put the drain of the disposal at about ~14". And I'm not sure how low the sink will be sitting in the top as it's a corian top with integrated corian sink.

    As you can see, we don't have much room to play with...I've looked at other disposal's and they all have the discharge in about the same place. Our house is about 35 years old. The instructions on the disposal says the drain for the disposal must be at least 1/4" higher than the sewer drain.

    Ugh..I guess I'll wait till they come out and measure and I'll ask them at that point...may have to go with a much smaller sink...Or no disposal..

    Steve
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2005
  9. jimbo

    jimbo Plumber

    Messages:
    8,997
    Location:
    San Diego
    Third rule of Plumbing ( or first, or fourth or whatever) : water will not run up hill, and a disposer will not pump water up hill. You have to lower the inlet on the wall.
  10. desmoface

    desmoface New Member

    Messages:
    9
    Hi Jimbo, how hard is it to do that?..looks like a royal pain in the you know what. I guess it would be easier to just get a smaller sink...Thanks again for the reply/info..

    Steve
  11. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    27,242
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    disposer

    Yes, a disposer will pump water uphill, but that is not a solution to the problem. Desmo, how are you measuring the disposer outlet, or how deep is that sink? To my knowledge, I have never seen a sink/disposer configuration that really had to be lower than 17" above the floor, and that is where most plumbers install the drain opening.
  12. desmoface

    desmoface New Member

    Messages:
    9
    Hi HJ, thanks for the reply. My wife says I have ocd for even worrying about it..her attitude is the contractor will figure it out, but Murphy (as in Murphy's law) and me have sort of a relationship going on and you know how that goes.

    Here is the disposal with measurements, 6 11/16" is the one I'm looking at.

    http://www.insinkerator.com/pdfs/H538.pdf

    Here is the sink, the disposal will be going on the smaller sink, I'm looking at the depth measurement of the smaller sink which is going to be around 7.5" from the bottom of the drain (underneath the sink).

    http://tinyurl.com/9c83h

    I measured as best as I could from under the sink in our kitchen and it appears that I have about 15" from the bottom of our current countertop to the top of the sewer drain. The house is about 35 years old so it's not ancient but it's not new either, not even sure this would affect where the drain was originally placed..

    I talked to the place thats doing the job for us and they said that this is their most popular sink and they've never had a problem but that it's good to "measure twice and cut once." They also said something about a baffle that can be used on the disposal that would prevent water from coming back into it if it was lower than the drain..I'm not too comfy with this option.

    There is a smaller sink that I know would work: http://tinyurl.com/93j8a
    But, it's smaller and of course the wife wants the bigger one.

    The shop doing the work said they have a plumber on staff and they could always do what was mentioned, cut into the wall and lower the drain hole. Of course, I'm afraid that this will turn out to be one of those jobs where it's much more work than they originally thought.

    Oh well...thanks again for all the info and any thoughts..

    Steve
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2005
  13. Snowman

    Snowman New Member

    Messages:
    83
    Location:
    FLORIDA
    Terry,
    In your diagram it shows the air gap fitting above the sink top. I remember these from back in the 1950s and 60s. The one we have now is inside the cabinet just below the rim of the sink. Should it be higher than "something"?? Could it be lower than the trap?? Why is it shown so high?? Water??

    Thanks, Tom :)
  14. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,413
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    In some parts of the country, they want an "air gap" between the waste line of some fixtures.

    I food prep sink will have a drain going into a floor sink with a gap between.
    That way no waste can siphon back up.

    It's the same with dishwashers.
    the gap is there, above the flood level of the kitchen sink in this case, to prevent waste from backing up into the dishwasher.

    Ever since I say the History Channel feature on plumbing, the story where 25% of Chicago died from sickness as the result of bad plumbing, I've been a little more stern about these matters.
  15. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    27,242
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    drain

    Desmo, if the drain is 15" below the countertop, then it must be about 20-21 inches above the floor, not 17". If so, then it can be a problem, and a baffle cannot prevent water from standing in the disposer if its outlet is too low.
  16. desmoface

    desmoface New Member

    Messages:
    9
    Hi HJ, I measured and the bottom of the drain pipe is about 18" from the floor. I think we decided to go with a little smaller sink in which the smaller of the two (double sink) is about 5" deep. Should eleviate any problems...Thanks again for all the info and replies..

    Steve
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2005
  17. smmalitsky

    smmalitsky New Member

    Messages:
    1
    Air gap and sink depth

    My kitchen sink worked fine before. Recently, I had a new, deeper sink installed (10" deep; also bigger in length and width), with a new disposal, and got rid of the air gap. Now, when I pour a pot of water in the sink, it drains down very slowly. If I turn on the disposal, the water goes right down. Will an air gap help drainage by allowing the air in the disposal to escape to somewhere? Is the bigger/deeper sink somehow causing this problem?

    Thanks,
    Steve
  18. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,413
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    The dishwasher air gap will not help the sink drain.

    It for backflow.

    If you have a deep sink, you may need to lower the trap arm at the wall.
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