Kitchen Hot Water Problem

[Greenthumb77]

I need help on solving hot water problem in kitchen.

Here is some background info
In 1997 we bot a single story California home. It is about 2400 sq ft 4 bedroom 2 1/2 bathes with a kitchen island where the sink, dishwasher and electric cooktop reside. We had he home inspected but the hot water issue was missed. We discivered the problem after purchase. We choose not to take any action against the inspector .

We solved the problem putting a 6 gal electric water heater under a cabinet and grabbing power from a 20 amp plug on the island. We realized it was not up to code and figured one day we would bring it up to standard. We now want to remodel the kitchen and that day has arrived.

I have done considerable research about re circulation pumps and I am hesitate to use them. They can cause pin hole leaks in copper tubing p, which in our case is looped under the slab floor from the far side of the house to the 1/2 bath on the kitchen and then to our kitchen. Our home was constructed in 1979.

Would some advise me about installing a water heater in the garage on the kitchen side of the house? On this side of the house we has out washer dryer and the 1/2 bath. We also have access to a gas line.

Does thus sound like it would fix the problem?
How do you tap into the water lines?
It it an extremely expensive project.
It it a DYI kind of a project?
Are there fixes out there I have not considered or fully thought through?

I want thank you for any help or advice you can give me.

Jim

 

[FullySprinklered]

The hot water is slow to get to the kitchen; is that the problem? If so, compare the cost of a recirculation pump to the cost of a new water heater, and let that be your starting point on deciding what to do.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[hj]

The pump ONLY causes deterioration if it is NOT modulated to restrict the velocity of the water through the pips.

 

[MichaelBukay]

you can put another water heater in if you have a gas supply that is sized properly. if you don't want the water lines in the slab, you have to get creative. A plumber with detection equipment can trace your water lines and find where they come and go from. this is expensive. to tap into lines you find the line you are looking for and open the wall/floor and add a T. i don't think it is a DIY project. the water pipes loop together in the wall at a manifold and go from room to room in the wall. you have to figure out what lines goes where. very time consuming. might be cheaper to just add a recirc. (http://www.faucetdepot.com/faucetde...AsGiOONXhSKsI8XjmBcnIMBJ5IKbbxmnJWhoCbZnw_wcB) although i install these often, i get mixed results. they work pretty well. but they won't make you 100% happy. a 2nd water heater will be expensive especially if you have to up-size a gas line. guaranteed you will have a slab leak in the future either way with pipes under the slab. i can't even begin to tell you how many times i have had calls for slab leaks. it always seems to happen house by house in a neighborhood where the houses were built at the same time. it's usually the hot water pipes.

 

[Greenthumb77]

Thank you guys for your advice. I was hoping i could install a water heater in the corner of the garage and hook the water up from the adjacent bathroom sink water sources . I Can acces these copper pipes that come up from the slab and hook into the hot and cold sink facets. I have an unused gas pipe nearby for a gas dryer. I use an electric dryer.

Does this seem feasible?

And yur are correct. It is not a diy project

Thank you

Jim

 

[Greenthumb77]

The pump ONLY causes deterioration if it is NOT modulated to restrict the velocity of the water through the pips.

Yes. My web research mentioned velocity. Unfortunately, my research has not found a solution to this velosity problem. Is there something, a separate part that can be attached akong with the recirculation pump that can control this? Is there a pump that has a velosity control system as a part of ths unit?

 

[Onokai]

How about a grundfos smart pump??I'm liking the auto Pm pumps as I'm putting one in next week myself.
http://us.grundfos.com/content/dam/GPU/Products/up10/LUPSL025 Comfort PM Sales Flyer_Rev 07-14.pdf

Learns your usage .

 

[Greenthumb77]

How about a grundfus smart pump??I'm liking the auto Pm pumps as I'm putting one in next week myself.
http://us.grundfos.com/content/dam/GPU/Products/up10/LUPSL025 Comfort PM Sales Flyer_Rev 07-14.pdf

Learns your usage .

Does this pump regulate velosity and decrease the risk of copper pipe leakage? Also, the literature says it is for a home that has a dedicated hot water return line. How would I know if I have a dedicated hot water retun line?

 

[Gary Swart]

I have used a Laing recirculation system in my home for years with zero problems. I would not be without it. Grundfus is another very good brand. I got mind on the auction website, so I wasn't comparing brands. How you would know if you have a dedicated return line? Look. The return line returns from the far end of the hot water line to the tank. It is not hidden and doesn't take a plumber to determine. Hint: if you don't have a recirculation pump installed very near the water heater, you don't have a return line.

 

[Onokai]

You can use full port ball valves to control velocity
If you do not have a return line as noted above you can still have instant hot water with an aquastat installed under sink that uses the cold water as the loop back.
You really need to read up on this more I think before tackling the job
If you get a pump I would get one of the new ECM variable circulators like the grundfos pm (the auto with sensor sets itself to your use patterns) That use far less power (5 t0 8amps).
My guess is you do not have a return line in a 1979 house.
Also you never stated your problem but we all guess its long wait time for hot water?
Take a look at the article in fine homebuilding (Feb/March issue #249) this month on pages 60-63
making hot -water recirculation pay.
Mark

 

[Reach4]

If you get a pump I would get one of the new ECM variable circulators like the grundfus pm (the auto with sensor sets itself to your use patterns) That use far less power (5 t0 8amps).

That sounds like a lot of power. Do these have a very low duty cycle? I had presumed that a hot water recirculation pump would run continuously for long periods but draw just a little power.

 

[Greenthumb77]

I checked and I dont have a return line.

My problem is a long wait time from the looped underslab cooper pipe to bring hot water to my kitchen island. I was all set to do the recirculation pump but I made the mistake of too much knowledge from my web reaearch (LOL). There can be pin leaks in the copper tubing created by the higher velosity from the pumps. The reason I am nervious about pin hole leaks is that two tears ago we had one in the master bath. There was mold caused by it and it was costly to fix.

I shall look into a full port ball value.

I was hoping there would be a pump that would contol velosity and wok with a sysem that does not have a dedicated hot retirn line. Is there anything out there that dies this?

Can the Grunfos Comfort PM work on a system w/o a return line?

Thank-you for your help

Jim

 

[Onokai]

Can the Grundfos Comfort PM work on a system w/o a return line?

Yes but you need an aquastat placed under your sink in kitchen.

 

[Greenthumb77]

I want to thank all of you for your advice. I shall put in some sort of recirculation pump.

A Big thx to
fullysprinklered
hj
Michael Bukay
Ono Kai
Gary Swat
Reach4

Regards,

Jim

 

[FullySprinklered]

You're welcome. Thanks for dropping by.