Kilz2 Primer

Discussion in 'Remodel Forum & Blog' started by Mike50, Aug 3, 2006.

  1. Mike50

    Mike50 DIY Senior Member

    Messages:
    699
    Location:
    Southern California
    Damn I love this stuff. Im painting this space all bright white and I was even considering leaving the primer as is.
    The resident paint expert at HD told me not to. Which of course makes me want to do it anyway. Any thoughts on primer as your finished color?

    Or is it just to absorbant and it's just asking for trouble?
  2. doughboy63

    doughboy63 New Member

    Messages:
    34
    When I moved into my current house I repainted the entire thing(ceilings, walls, and trim). I primed and did two tops coats. Took forever, well not really forever, but painting is so boring. anyway you can imagine since the trim was the last to get top coat I thought about leaving it just primed. It looks a thousand times better with paint on it. Also the kilz has a kind of rough finish to it where paint ends up being more smooth. I would paint it myself. If you want really bright white,I used Behr ultra bright white for my trim and it is really white, will definitely brighten the space up. I also found that after time color starts to bleed through the primer, but disappear when top coated. Just my thoughts.
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2006
  3. chassis

    chassis Engineer

    Messages:
    339
    Location:
    SE Pennsylvania
    I've used Kilz primer to paint unfinished basement walls, left it as is. It is a rough looking finish though. If it was going to be a finished space, I would put a color coat on top.
  4. jimbo

    jimbo Plumber

    Messages:
    8,997
    Location:
    San Diego
    There is nothing wrong per se with Kilz ..or any primer...being left as the finish coat. Now, will it perform like you want? first it is flat...very flat. If that's what you want, then OK. second, though, it does not have the "scrubbable" properties of a good flat finish latex. third, it will probably not cover any better in one coat than anything else, so 2 coats would be necessary. Unless the surface is so bad that it needs 2 coats of primer, why not do one primer coat and 1 finish coat?
  5. Mike50

    Mike50 DIY Senior Member

    Messages:
    699
    Location:
    Southern California
    Right. And I've decided that makes the best sense. Currently searching for the whitest high quality white available. Everyone seems to think they know the "whitest white". I want a major label brand because I'll eventually do the whole house interior with it.
    Maybe it's our dry intense heat out here--but these walls are drinking up this primer like a sponge. Should have bought economy size.

    Kilz Premium primer is better than Kilz2 for bathrooms I'm told as it has anti-mildew properties FWIW.

    Going all white is especially great for the average DIY doing prep and touch up work.
    It hides all the the wall imperfections.
    Especially if you have delusions of magnificence reagarding your sanding and putty knife skills--then discovering the next morning you're a hack.
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2006
  6. doughboy63

    doughboy63 New Member

    Messages:
    34
    Seriously, check out Behr ultra bright white. I had to repaint the bathroom with a duller/less bright white because it made my "white" tile look quite gray.
  7. Mike50

    Mike50 DIY Senior Member

    Messages:
    699
    Location:
    Southern California
    I will.

    Look-heres the deal. 95% of the time you ask for "white" you won't get it. It's not popular.
    Most shades of white contain other colors in small quantities.
    Then they come up with dumb ass names for it like Ivory or Sawyer or Pearl etc. which all have a hazy yellow hue.


    I did read on another board that Benjamin More had highest % of titanium dioxide which is the premium ingredient in quality paint. I'm looking into it.
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2006
  8. prashster

    prashster New Member

    Messages:
    941
    More important than the color in hiding imperfections is the sheen. The shinier, the easier to clean. But, the flatter, the better it hides. My advice: unless you have kids, go with a flat.

    Benjamin Moore makes a Matte finish that's slightly more 'scrubbable' than reg flat. I thought people who prefered BenjMoore to Behr or American Tradition were snobs who don't read Consumer Reports (which gave AT and B the highest value ratings). But in my experience, BenjMoore looks and applies the best.

    I also suggest you go with "White" no matter what brand you pick. Every mfg will make a simple "White" which will match every other simple "White" on the market. "Decorators White" or "Ultra White" are not standard.
  9. Mike50

    Mike50 DIY Senior Member

    Messages:
    699
    Location:
    Southern California
    As stated earlier I want an ultra white. Why are you suggesting basic "white"?
    There may be a snob factor with Benjamin Moore.
    I've read it doesnt leave any brush strokes and so on.
    I may just try it out.
    Never used Behr-but AT is a very high quality thick usually one coat paint.

    AT is what I would use to paint entire house. BM is expensive paint.

    I'm looking for highest amount of titanium dioxide to decide if higher price is warrated in the case of BM. So far I cannot find a comparision table on the web, but Im looking.
    Paint formulas are very proprietary. Im not sure that highest amount of TD
    equates to the superior paint but it just might.

    TD is what makes white..."white". To which various dyes and tints are added.
    Kilz2 primer is about as flat as you will see anywhere--thats why I like it.
    For scrubbability I will use a satin or semi-gloss.

    Paint basics
    Paint is primarily a mixture of pigment, resin and a carrier. Titanium dioxide is the main, white pigment; relatively small amounts of other pigments are added by the dealer to tint the color. Resin makes paint adhere to a surface. Carrier is the evaporative liquid added to thin the mixture so you can brush or roll it on--water for latex paints or a solvent such as linseed or soybean oil for oil/alkyd paints. Paint also contains clay or other inert ingredients to adjust the paint's sheen. And it may contain small amounts of secondary solvents that help gloss, drying characteristics and the like.

    The amount and quality of each ingredient determine a paint's performance and price. For example, paint with plenty of titanium dioxide has strong hiding characteristics and, because this is the most expensive ingredient, costs more. Oil/alkyd paints that utilize odorless mineral spirits as a carrier are more expensive than those with regular solvents. With this in mind, price is a good indicator of quality.


    credit: Housetips.com
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2006
  10. Mikey

    Mikey Aspiring Old Fart, EE, computer & networking geek

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    Location:
    Central Florida
    I used to be a Benjamin Moore snob. After reading a couple years' CU reports on Behr and getting tired of driving 30 miles or more to a BM store, getting there when they deigned to be open, and paying the high prices, I tried some Behr eggshell latex on the walls and loved it. Tried their High Gloss latex enamel and it covered much better, and left fewer brush strokes than BM. I've had all my old BM stuff color-matched at HD and am a convert.

    TIP: wait until a national holiday to buy your Behr paint. They typically have super sales on Washington's birthday, 4th of July, and maybe others. Often not aggressively advertised.
  11. Mike50

    Mike50 DIY Senior Member

    Messages:
    699
    Location:
    Southern California
    Thats really helpful Mikey. I'm going to look for those reports and decide next week. I will try not to buy into the BM hype out there. I need a rest after all that priming. lol
    Painting is truly and literally a PITA.
  12. prashster

    prashster New Member

    Messages:
    941
    I used to NOT be a BM snob. I am now. I notice the dif in application and finish. Can't explain it; just brushes better and more even (for me). Use your Behr if it works for you. I read the CR reviews of Behr and AT also. But my experience with all 3 tells me different.

    Use Ultrawhite if you think you're going to notice the subtle difs between titanium diox doses in yr paints. I used ultrawhite in one of my rooms, and I don't notice the diff unless I paint reg white right next to it. Unless it's near another shade of white, all whites look like white (to me).

    White requires frequent touching up in my experience. Having the generic white gives you flexibility to select whatever brand of touchup you feel like at the time.
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2006
  13. Mike50

    Mike50 DIY Senior Member

    Messages:
    699
    Location:
    Southern California
    Apparently the the Benjamin Moore Eco Spec is considered "super-compliant" with low or no VOC. Low VOC=better paint all the way around. Coverage, Cleanup etc. and not having to breathe in the VOC makes it worth the extra 5 bucks or whatever.
    Eco spec doesn't come in a superwhite BTW.

    There is no generic white prashter. I have no idea what you are referring to.
    Crissake...AT makes around 30 white shades and thats just one company.

    Top 8:

    http://interiordec.about.com/cs/paintinginteriors/tp/tp_paintmfgs.htm
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2006
  14. prashster

    prashster New Member

    Messages:
    941
    Most manufacturers will sell a color called, simply, "White". Anything else, ("Navajo White" Or "Alabaster" or "Ultrawhite" or "Like White on Rice") is not pure white. "White" by any mfg will be the Pantone standard white. So, perhaps I should have said "standard" not "generic".
  15. Mike50

    Mike50 DIY Senior Member

    Messages:
    699
    Location:
    Southern California
    So Pantone has defined what white is/should look like and the entire industry follows their standard-is that what you are saying prashter?

    Color formulas are proprietary including whites and blacks.
    Popular whites today contain small amounts of reds or yellows primarily.
    Most people have trouble seeing it. I do. I'm a graphic artist and look at this stuff all day. It's so subtle it's difficult at times.

    Pantone doesn't own the color spectrum. Some may use it for precise color matching. I don't see any other value truthfully.

    In the printing/graphics world up until fairly recently your choice of colors numbered in the hundreds. Ink Jets changed all that. Now it's millions.

    We've had discussions here about the difficulty in mixing bathroom suites whites (toilet/sink/bath) from different manufacturers. Some match OK-some don't.
    Luckily most people could care less.
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2006
  16. Cass

    Cass Plumber

    Messages:
    5,980
    Location:
    Ohio
    My understanding is that the more titanium dioxide the whiter the paint. That said if you used 100% titanium dioxide it would fall off the wall due to no binder so there is definately a max. amount that can be used and have it work right. Can anyone verify this for me?
  17. Mike50

    Mike50 DIY Senior Member

    Messages:
    699
    Location:
    Southern California
    Pure TD Powder is used as womens makeup and other products. It won't stick to your wall--neither will Parmesan cheese.
    If you add liquids & solvents you get guess what?--paint.

    I looked for the tables of amounts used by manufacturers. I could only find one government hazardous material chart. Benjamin Moore does use TD in the 20-27% range.
    Other paint brands featured were in the 5-15% range overall as I recall.

    Actual formulas are "sooper sekrit".

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium_dioxide
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2006
  18. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,025
    Location:
    New England
    Most anyones white tinting base is about as white as you can get and can be used as is. For practical purposes, except for the level of gloss, the color should be about as close as you can get brand to brand. Once you start to add other pigments, then all bets are off.
  19. Mike50

    Mike50 DIY Senior Member

    Messages:
    699
    Location:
    Southern California
    ...anyway I bought the Benjamin Moore-decorator white. eggshell finish.
    It's bright enough for my needs.

    If someone believes a particular brand of white is different from another manufacturer there is factual evidence that supports that opinion.
    That being said--What someone else sees and what I see may be different.

    There simply is no universal "White" to the very best of my knowledge.
    All formulas are proprietary trade secrets.
  20. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

    Messages:
    22,025
    Location:
    New England
    They don't normally sell the tinting base untinted...it isn't a full gallon, since it has to have room to add the color components. Everyone's tinting base is as white as can be made, and except for the resins, etc. that determine its brushability and gloss, is very close. Anything labled as a ready to buy white of some sort, is likely to have at least some other pigments in it.
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