Kerdi/Red Gard Questions - A train wreck of advice

Discussion in 'Shower & bathtub Forum & Blog' started by johnfrwhipple, May 16, 2014.

  1. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

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    Doing some research tonight and found this answer posted on a online forum....

    Have a read - very entertaining info !!!

    Where's Mongo when you need him! LOL

    If they are doing Kerdi....do ONLY Kerdi! Redgard has no place there! With Kerdi, you need to use ONLY their proprietary drain....NOT a "clamping drain." There is NO preslope needed with Kerdi as the water cannot go beyond the fabric.
    You don't even need Durock in a Kerdi shower.....regular drywall is factory recommended. When you use TWO different waterproofing materials, you run the risk of a "moisture sandwich," which is NOT good.

    I recommend you get someone conversant with SAM's (Surface Applied Membranes) and tell these guys to pound sand.....in other words....GO!


    Posted by StoneTech

    This was the question asked on the forum:

    Hey Everyone.
    This site and a few others have been a real help in educating myself; however, I am having trouble finding some answers.

    We have been working with a company to redo our bathroom and they started about a 2 week ago. We finally are doing the shower and it's been down hill since.

    They redgarded the durrock the other day and that's when I completely lost faith in their knowledge. There is issues with the redgard but I've got a grasp on it. (Gaping holes, paint on the slab before prelsope, pin holes, super thing, etc. etc.)

    Yesterday when one of their guys showed up to do a little more work I started questioning him. He ended up saying it was a problem for the plumber and he'd talk to the pm. So this morning I got a call that they are removing this installer and putting someone else on it.

    So as of right now we are not doing anything until Monday.

    As such this question may be out of line but looking at their setup I am taking a guess at their plan and want to be able to call BS on it on Monday if it is not correct.

    (I understand they really shouldn't mix redgard and kerdi and plan to discuss this monday, but again I have a grasp on those issues.)

    My current question is can Kerdi be used as a pan liner below a mud bed?

    The reason I ask this is they have a standard clamping drain installed atm. They've yet to preslope the floor (old house had deep mud pan, and we have extended the shower) and I have this nagging feeling that they plan to place it below the mud bed and on the prelsope once it is laid.

    I don't know why we would be spending the money on Kerdi to use it like any other basic liner.

    (Sorry if I am confusing anyone, let me know if I can clarify anything.)
    Last edited: May 16, 2014
  2. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

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    Moisture Sandwich

    [​IMG]

    The dreaded Moisture Sandwich.

    Take two slices of giant white bread. Lather on some Red Gard and some Kerdi or approved waterproofing membrane and TATA - A Moisture Sandwich.....

    LOL

    Who writes this stuff. Are these old men getting their meds balanced ok I wonder?

    This model from the UK appears to love the Moisture Sandwich - I think I want a bite too

    [​IMG]

    Model Nina Agdal and the dreaded Moisture Sandwich


    "I asked for a Moisture Sandwich!"

    [​IMG]
    Last edited: May 16, 2014
  3. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

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    Preslope implies a liner then another mudbed...so, and I understand the answer as I expect you do too, technically, it is not a preslope, but all liners need to be on a sloped bed. So, taking things out of context is very misleading. What those supposed pros were doing does not adhere to any TCNA or manufacturer's guidelines, but is one reason why the TCNA says 75% of the tiled showers built are built incorrectly. If they waterproofed the seams, it would not leak, but it would perform poorly, have no warranty, and be a disappointment for the owner. It's tricky, but possible to waterproof the clamping drain seal, but that has not been the recommended way since the introduction of the Kerdi drain in 2001 - the new (well, nearly 14-years 'new') way is much easier than the old one, and a lot more flexible. There is a readily available conversion drain if you already have a clamping drain installed.

    Maybe they should read the instructions, or watch the video, or get some training. I can see no reason to throw RedGard into a typical Kerdi shower install.

    John has a new mission in life, discredit anything on any other website he can no longer directly influence by posting there, and to paint a bad taste in anything produced by Schluter. A man with a mission...a man with a chip on his shoulder.
  4. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

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    That info post was garbage

    Jim. That is not the case.

    The importance of this post is to show the lack of knowledge out there.

    That info post was garbage. I broke it down line by line below.....

    So is Spot Setting Tile.

    So is Retired Engineers answer construction questions with the underlying mission of promoting one system.

    Keep it up Jim - you have far more than me here that dislike your posts and goggle searched wisdom.

    If you grew a pair you should pipe up when your hero's spot method tile setting approach is clearly shown as flawed.
    Last edited: May 17, 2014
  5. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

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    Kerdi/Redgard train wreck of advice

    If they are doing Kerdi....do ONLY Kerdi! Redgard has no place there! With Kerdi, you need to use ONLY their proprietary drain....NOT a "clamping drain." There is NO preslope needed with Kerdi as the water cannot go beyond the fabric.
    You don't even need Durock in a Kerdi shower.....regular drywall is factory recommended. When you use TWO different waterproofing materials, you run the risk of a "moisture sandwich," which is NOT good.

    I recommend you get someone conversant with SAM's (Surface Applied Membranes) and tell these guys to pound sand.....in other words....GO!


    So in Red above again the train wreck of Kerdi Red Gard advice. Lets break down how bad it really was.... Line by line.

    "This site and a few others have been a real help in educating myself; however, I am having trouble finding some answers." - original question post Self Help Online. Scary when you do not know the person giving you the answers. Scary if the person helping is a paid promoter. Common I find these days to have men pretending to be builders in the mix of real pros. Typically I find the promoters are those with the time to post massive post counts. My posts are in the purple.

    If they are doing Kerdi....do ONLY Kerdi! Redgard has no place there! - Here the poster is right. Schluter does not allow the use of liquid membranes to reinforce their product. Only non-modifed thin-set or Kerdi Fix can be used. In a Mapei training class years back we were told that a local inspector failed a shower flood test for this exact reason. Scary.

    They redgarded the durrock the other day and that's when I completely lost faith in their knowledge. There is issues with the redgard but I've got a grasp on it. (Gaping holes, paint on the slab before prelsope, pin holes, super thing, etc. etc.)
    Most likely the first coat. The crew perhaps missed a drop sheet but the pre slope was going down later. Also if they had not swept then the dust would have been a bond breaker making it easy to remove any excess.


    Redgard has no place there! - Well again, by the book he is right. But if you do not trust the seems like many pros I know you might feel comfort in the back up plan.

    My current question is can Kerdi be used as a pan liner below a mud bed?Simple answer - NO it can not. I have asked numerous times this question to Schluter. I was even told by my rep that the old Kerdi Flashings like NobleFlex Flashing where available but neither I nor the Kerdi saleswomen at Ames Bros could locate any such product anymore in the Kerdi sales book. So the Answer is NO - Kerdi can not be used with a typically clamping drain unless you spend the money on a conversion kit.


    With Kerdi, you need to use ONLY their proprietary drain....NOT a "clamping drain." - Again, this guy is right here on this point. But the lady who asked the question mentions she has a clamping drain all ready installed. Kerdi is not allowed to be used with a clamping drain I think because it's so super thin. Now if the poster knew more he might have suggested the lady's crew use a NobleFlex Flashing and finsh the shower build out with Noble's products. Or the poster could have suggested spending another $130.00 and getting a clamping drain conversion kit from Schluter. But he just said RedGuard has no place there. Or does it? I'm retry sure RedGuard like, Mapei's and Laticrete's liquids can be installed to a clamping drain. Now I do not like this but it does not change the fact that it can not be done.

    The reason I ask this is they have a standard clamping drain installed atm. They've yet to preslope the floor (old house had deep mud pan, and we have extended the shower) and I have this nagging feeling that they plan to place it below the mud bed and on the prelsope once it is laid.Not the proper use of Kerdi - However NobleSeal TS can be used this way

    There is NO preslope needed with Kerdi as the water cannot go beyond the fabric. - this is the worst part of the advice. Every custom made shower needs a slope of a 1/4" per foot. With a regular shower build (like the lady was having built) you use a clamping drain and to do this you need a pre-slope prior to the liner and another r graded surface for the tile after. This lady was smart enough to call the crew on the pre-slope. To get her facts right she reached out online and meet with a Kerdi Pusher - ignorant to most common sense shower building facts. I wonder if they are trained to shove their heads up their asses at these camps? I wonder.....

    I don't know why we would be spending the money on Kerdi to use it like any other basic liner.Wrong product use Wrong idea - disaster waiting to happen for sure....


    You don't even need Durock in a Kerdi shower.....regular drywall is factory recommended. - Now the selling begins. Let's remember the lady has the Durock there. This line is intended for the future viewers - part of the constant brain washing program these people use. Over and over and over again. Use drywall. Use a solid backer. I think Durock backer board is crap. I think it is way to brittle and dusty. Bottom of the barrel in cement backer boards. But still better than drywall.

    When you use TWO different waterproofing materials, you run the risk of a "moisture sandwich," which is NOT good. - too date there has been no study from the ANSI or TCNA or NTCA on the subject of moisture sandwich's. Like Vortex folds. And other made up concerns these topics have no study. I spoke with Eric from Noble Company about this on the phone about two or three months back. He told me they (TCNA Members) are in talks about scheduling a test. But the Manufactures I'm sure need to get together and make a plan. So expect a test and results sometime in 2021

    I recommend you get someone conversant with SAM's (Surface Applied Membranes) and tell these guys to pound sand.....in other words....GO! - Not bad advice. The crew was clearly cutting corners and not skilled enough.

    So a post like the one above can make sense to someone trained in the industry but confusing to those out of it.

    Careful what you read online people lots of men like are own Jim here like to preach gosbel and sell specific products....
    Last edited: May 17, 2014
  6. DougB

    DougB Member

    "have no warranty"

    I can't believe anyone has EVER been paid for a warranty claim. Used wrong thinset, didn't overlap enough, the laboratory said...........

    It cleary states on page 196 of the warranty disclaimier: This warranty shall be null and void unless the original installer wore a tin foil hat while building the entire bathroom.
  7. Justadrip

    Justadrip New Member

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    Bet its never happened and never will. The onus will always be put on the installer never the products.
    The most I have seen is a company throw a few bags of this and a few rolls of that when something happens.
  8. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

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    I'm not sure how many times I have looked but it has been at least a dozen times. And not once have I found any reference to any company coming in and re-doing a job. I have found so many examples of installer errors. One installer I chatted with even called the TCNA recommended Tile Export. Hi was told something like he here's dozens of calls like this and they always turn out to be installer error.

    If these products never fail and never does a supplier step in and make it right. What is the concern about warranties in the first place.


    Does anyone know of any company that has redone a shower because their product failed?
  9. eurob

    eurob In the trades

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    Protect the corporation at all cost . This is where the corporations gets ground over personal rights . Easy job to convince the installer to accept some '' payment '' -- some products with no real value other than monetary --and do the repair without any -- paperless -- trace or records on the corporation's database. The result is disastrous for the tile mechanic which has no more say -- just a controlled tool in the tile industry -- .

    IN OTHER WORDS -- IOW -- the responsible party is the installer , which takes the blame -- acceptance of responsibility -- . The manufacturer -- corporation -- saves face and can claim '' installer error '' everywhere , '' this is the first time '' , '' never happened before '' , or any derivatives of it .
    Last edited: May 18, 2014
  10. eurob

    eurob In the trades

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    Easy way out -- mfg warranty -- , when the outcome -- responsibility -- is already known -- 90% or more -- installer error .

    Warranty doesn't necessary translate into responsibility . It is easier to make work a product -- itself -- in a controlled lab test then into a construction assembly , where everything else is bound to each other and is expected to work in harmony .
  11. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

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    90% or more would mean 10% or less is the manufacture's fault.

    Roberto and Counter Balance you have seen the ANSI testing procedures for ANSI 118.10? Are seams even tested in the procedure? Not for strength but for waterproofing. Seems to me after studying the specification and parameters they test only full materials. So seams made with non-modifed thin-set or NobleSealant 150 would not even be part of the test procedure.

    Seems a little reckless to me. But hey - I don't own $100,000 test equipment.

    Now if a product did fail? Who do you call for help? And what does that cost?
  12. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

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    LOL - Doug do you need the really shinny side out or the kind of shiny side out for warranty protection?
  13. eurob

    eurob In the trades

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    I was trying to be moderate with the numbers . The 10% are for Hybrid installations . :D
  14. DougB

    DougB Member

    I would think a man of your experience, would know that it's shiny side out!
  15. RedShoecounterbalance

    RedShoecounterbalance Member

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    Here we have 2 membranes, and 2 thinsets from a total of 4 different company's all working together for one common goal, None of them like the company they represent because of all the rules placed upon them, limiting their ability to work in the field with their peers.......They simply feel they can reach across bi-partisan lines to get the job done, Blue, green, red, orange.

    The tile MFG industry is becoming bi-partisan, and seemingly operating like a big gov't corporate machine, starting wars in far off internet places, just like the gov't..... Jim against John, they have us busy fighting with each other while they pull more wool over our eyes, offering non-existant warrantys "Dreams".........It all a big plan......


    JIM: Eat your orange heart out. Thats modified there under the orange peels.........add CBU and that means we have 5 MFG wrrty. "Dream" voids in this train wreck...


    photo.jpg
    Last edited: May 19, 2014
  16. DougB

    DougB Member

    Being just a 'handy' engineer - I realized that the challange was getting the shower pan and drain correct. I know I'm a rookie, so I purchased ready made shower niches and shower pans for the two bathrooms I've remodeled in my home. I used Tile Redi - not cheap - a $500 shower pan - but all you have to do is set it in mortar. Very sturdy, all nicely sloped to the drain, recessed on the sides with a lip for 1/2" cement board.

    I know you pro's can do it for much less, and all sorts of shapes - but I advise rookies (like myself) to consider a preformed pan.
    Last edited: May 19, 2014
  17. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

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    Doug did you take any pictures of the process? How does the drain tie into the shower pan? Did you need to sand the pan? Use epoxy mortar.

    I hear mostly negative comments about the Tile Ready Pan.

    When I saw them in Las Vegas years ago I was not impressed. But at least they are not made from cheap ass foam.

    I have An AKW pan in my shop ready to go when every. But with the liquid waterproofing spec I'm not sold.
  18. DougB

    DougB Member

    I'll see if I have pictures.

    The pan has a 2" pvc drain stub bonded to it. They also threw in some flashing that goes behind the cement board, and over the lip of the pan - to ensure no water where the cement board and the pan meet. You do have to use expoy mortar on the pan - and they don't give you enough - for the price they should give you more.

    It took 1 hour to set the pan - most of the time was spent mixing the mortar.

    Considering that the drain is built in (as well as the curb and it'is pitched in a couple of degrees), and it's not going to leak, is a good solution for a DIY'er. I don't know if it the time saving aspect out weights the cost (for a pro).
  19. DougB

    DougB Member

    Not a very good picture of the Tile Redi pan - but you can see the curb - at the bottom

    Shower_Almost_Done.jpg
  20. RedShoecounterbalance

    RedShoecounterbalance Member

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    Location:
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    Doug, That is lookin very good, did you do all the tiling and everything yourself???

    I may need you to drop the multimeter and come build some showers for me !!!!......I find in Minneapolis people are willing to pay on average $35 an hour!! for this skillset ( what a joke ) so I cant pay you much, some days it surely may be harder work and less pay than your trade, but I wont ask you to pull any home runs !!!!!!!!!!!

    Why dont you head over to the "Educating the budget client on Tile shower pricing" thread and tell us how much this shower project has cost you, what was involved, material choices and why? ballpark it and figure in your labor/materials and say you make around $35/hr when your tiling????

    Im thinking A Minneapolis area project like this with some of the materials youve mentioned and skilled labor you may have A $7-10K shower on your hands????
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