Katalox/Filox type medias and Hydrogen Peroxide

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Bdiggs

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Hey everyone, I had some questions about using Hydrogen Peroxide with the Manganese Dioxide medias. It seems to imply on both the brochure for Katalox-Light (Link) and Filox (old Matt-Son Link) that you can use Hydrogen Peroxide with a continuous feed ahead of it (and also just during the backwash, I guess to get it “extra clean”), but I have also heard that it can destroy the Manganese Dioxide media, and strip it off and put it downstream into the water supply. I’ve even heard that it can undergo exothermic reactions heating up the tank from the inside out in the process (as opposed to chlorine which seems to work great with them). I was just wondering what the bottom line was on this, if anyone knew or had experience with H2O2 and MnO2 media? Thank you!
 

_John_

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My supplier for Katalox likes it, but I've not installed a katalox only filter with peroxide injection yet.

I've had very good luck with katalox as a direct replacement to jobs we were doing with filox/mangox.
 

Reach4

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No experience, but that exothermic reaction generating enough heat to destroy the Katalox-Light media would make me very skeptical of whatever else that person said/wrote.
 

ditttohead

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So far, no complaints from the field for Katalox light, but it has not been in field as long as most other medias. In our test facility we have soaked it in 7% H2o2 for weeks at a time and 10% chlorine. Nothing happened... yet.
 

WellOff

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As I'm currently contemplating switching to Katalox Light and am using H2O2 injection (to deal with IRB) I really need to know for sure about this issue of compatibility. From http://watchwater.de/katalox_light/documents/KL_FAQ.pdf

Q: Is it necessary to use KMnO to regenerate Katalox-Light?
A: No, never use KMnO or Chlorine including Ozone or Hydrogen peroxide.

Is this a non-sequitur? Katalox Light doesn't require "regeneration," correct? If so, then of course one never needs to use KMnO or Chlorine, Ozone or H2O2! The question, however, still stands: if using any of these (well, perhaps other than KMnO) as part of the water treatment process does it cause problems with Katalox Light?

Might this just be a sneaky way of selling their OXYDES-P product? (if the pricing of this product were comparable to H2O2 I wouldn't have any problems considering it as a direct replacement [seem shipping should be cheaper given it's a powder rather than a liquid).
 

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WellOff

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Yup, translations are a bit rough. It that document that you provide it seems like H2O2 is desired/beneficial.
 

WellOff

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I've pretty much determined that H2O2 and Katalox Light are fine together. What I'd like to know is whether Katalox Light neutralizes H2O2. I'm kind of hoping that it does not so that I can have a residual trace of H2O2 in my distribution lines (for sanitation purposes; right now my catalytic carbon is neutralizing my H2O2 and after a while following shocking of my distribution lines -last noted about 6k gallons- I start to get odors related to bacteria.
 

Mikey

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I have the same problem with chlorine -- the catalytic carbon does a wonderful job of getting rid of the residual Cl, but a little is needed to sterilize the distribution lines. After about 6 years we noticed a smell in a few little-used cold water fixtures, and some mold in the toilets, apparently living in the under-rim area. I would rather live with sterilizing the system every 5 years, say, than with any hint of chlorine, but if you're using H2O2, it won't hint. Also, some health experts warn against using H2O2 on the skin, but in the concentrations you'd be dealing with, that's probably not an issue.

Having said all that, I didn't answer your question :(. To solve my chlorine problem without periodic system shocking, I'm looking at a Chemilizer pump to inject a very small amount of chlorine into selected cold water lines (hot water is no problem, since our solar system heats the tank up to 160°+ when it's really cooking). If you've got some flexibility in your plumbing topology, that's probably the way to go. Unless, of course, the Katalox Light leaks a little H2O2, in which case you're fine. Maybe someone here can answer that question...
 

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Okay! I finally have some updated information on Manganese Dioxide and H2O2/Hydrogen Peroxide. It (appears, I haven't DEEPLY researched it) that everyone is correct in that the Manganese Dioxide medias are fine with H2O2/Peroxide (well, obviously you guys already knew this with your experiences, but maybe this is sort of a theoretical confirmation?). The issue seems to be that the Manganese Dioxide medias act as a catalyst, helping to more quickly break down the H2O2 into oxygen (O2) and water (H2O). The Manganese Dioxide (MnO2) itself seems to be untouched - although the reaction is noted as being "slightly exothermic" in this video; however, I guess not enough to cause problems with excessive heat or otherwise when used with Katalox/Filox/MangOx/Pyrolox, etc. based on everyone's experiences. I'm basing all of that on these videos:
http://depts.washington.edu/chem/fa...ositionofH2O2withMnO2-UWDept.ofChemistry.html (I'm guessing all of that bubbling is water and oxygen being "created" / released from the H2O2, although it looks scary at first - as in "What is happening to the MnO2?!!!") And, if we can trust Yahoo! answers (this guy really does seem to know what he is talking about), it seems to corroborate it: https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081108043948AAQzf8X and here is his (pisgahchemist's) answer:

"MnO2 is a catalyst and as such it is involved in the reaction, but is not consumed in the reaction.

Catalysts work in two major ways. In one, the catalyst is a reactant in an early step in the mechanism and a product in a latter step, so that it appears that the catalyst is not consumed in the reaction.

In the second, the catalyst provides a surface on which the reaction can occur which makes the reaction more favorable.

In either case, a catalyst provides an alternate reaction pathway with a lower activation energy."​

So, basically, it appears that MnO2 (Manganese Dioxide) is just a catalyst in the reaction, but the MnO2 itself is left untouched?
 

ditttohead

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One thing to consider is the levels of h2o2 in an typical application.

7% h202 is 70,000 ppm, a standard injection ratio would be closer to >20 ppm so you would inject Approximately .002857% solution of the H2o2... not exactly a strong solution. It is recommended that h2o2 not be any higher than 15 ppm in a potable plumbing system. Since the iron, manganese, h2s and the KL media all cause the h202 to revert back to its water/oxygen state, and since the levels are so low, the potential for reactions are of no concern that we have seen. Even at high concentrations, the reactions are barely noticeable.
 

Bdiggs

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Thanks Ditto, true it's so low. I guess then the KL media does as good of a job of "removing" H2O2 as catalytic carbon (or better, then?), would there be a need for catalytic carbon following a KL tank in a continuous feed system? Say, to remove any disinfection byproducts or are there basically none (or none heard of yet) with H2O2? (What is that, with Chlorine the trihalomethanes and more along with the Chlorine turning into Chloramine that happens when it reacts with organics and can be followed with catalytic carbon to help take all of that out?)
 

ditttohead

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If you control the feed of the h2o2 properly then no post oxidant reduction method should be needed. I would recommend a simple test kit to determine the levels, or some simple math will get you fairly accurate.
 
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