Just general Softener Questions

[Brent Dacus]

So thanks for all the great reading.. Not a pro just a regular Joe.
So first some general data.
Municipal Water. 2 adults. 2.5 bath.
City Water psi 60
Hardness 22 grains

So I want to get rid of the Hardness and the chlorine. Should I worry about other things like Radium, lead and Barium? I was thinking GAC tank and Resin 10% tank. I have no dealer on the WQA in my area. Don't really know my GPM. Any general guidance is welcomed. Building a house so I don't need the system for about 6 month. I like to learn all I can first.

City WQR

 

[Mikey]

One thing I'll note that the pros may disagree with: As long as you're building the new home, plumb the toilets to a supply of softened but re-chlorinated water. I've found without the chlorine, mold will grow in the rim, and looks really ugly when it gets into the bowl and forms a ring. I squirt a shot of Clorox in there now and then, but it get tedious. Clorox also markets a tablet you put into the tank to do the job, but it provides a healthy dose, and I suspect it doesn't do the flapper any good.

In general, build in plumbing to supply water at various treatment levels to fixtures as required. No point in running purified and softened water to hose bibs, for example (except the one you use to wash the car).

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Brent Dacus]

No point in running purified and softened water to hose bibs, for example (except the one you use to wash the car).

I was definitely going to do this.

 

[Brent Dacus]

Ok one more thing I am having trouble understanding I wanted to add in. I have High Blood pressure. So I seem hear Salt Softeners are a bad idea for me. So where does the salt come in from other than the Regeneration process? Isn't that all wasted away the end? The normal flow of water would have no more salt than the 6 PPM noted in my city water. OR would it be less due to the Resin or the Carbon. Could or should I use something different like Potassium Chloride.

Overall seems like the Sodium would be nil.

 

[Reach4]

You could consider putting in a reverse osmosis filter (with a permiate pump) for drinking and ice, and not doing the whole house activated carbon filter. RO would do a better job on lead. RO would get rid of salt.

You can regenerate a softener with potassium salt. It costs roughly 5 times as much, and it can be more problematic in that the solubility varies with temperature much more than for sodium salt. A softener with regular salt will increase sodium levels, because the process replaces each calcium or magnesium ion with two sodium ions. Some people plumb unsoftened water to the cold tap of the kitchen faucet for drinking or plant watering. Some have an additional tap for unsoftened water.

While your chlorine level shows as high, that would probably be the level at the water plant. It will have dropped by the time it hits your house. You could get some low level chlorine test paper to see. LAMOTTE 2964LR-G looks good. You should have some residual chlorine at the house, but if that was 0.5 or less, that would be nice. But then the backwashing carbon filter you are considering is there for the organics too.

For softener sizing see http://www.qualitywaterassociates.com/softeners/sizingchart.htm to start. You can skim a lot of that. The bottom has a link to a calculator.

If I washed my car at home, it would be nice to have that soft water (maybe hot) for that. It would also be nice to have that soft water bib to fill a herbicide sprayer. It is probably unnecessary, but I am filling my herbicide backpack sprayer at the bathtub to get soft water to prevent deposits in the pump. Yes, it is overkill.

 

[Brent Dacus]

Reach Thanks I want to Keep It as simple as possible.. So that leads me to a few more questions. Looks like there is no real cost effective way to have whole house RO? I drink from every tap inside now so I doubt me doing RO say in the kitchen would be easy to change my habit. So is there a reliable whole house way to soften the water without adding Sodium other than RO or using Potassium?
Would it be easier to send soften water to Bathing, Dishwasher and Clothes washer. Then end GAC filtered water to drinking areas? just still learning keep me thinking..

 

[Brent Dacus]

Ok based on some more research the amount of sodium in softened water is not great enough in general to pose an issue for me. So now for design.
So in order is this the way to go?

City water > simple debris filter(for large sand dirt) > 12x54 GAC filter with Valve(for back wash) >12x54 10%resin for softening > inside home only All water hot and cold > Outside taps unsoftened.
OR
City water > simple carbon filter(for some chlorine (hoping it lower than recorded)large sand dirt) >12x54 10%resin for softening > 12x54 GAC filter with Valve(for back wash) > inside home only All water hot and cold > Outside taps unsoftened.

Essentially where is GAC best positioned..

Also I wanted to use Clack Valves.. As you can guess no dealer in my area. Since they started the no internet policy I can't buy direct.

So would 2 Fleck 7000s be ok. I need to backwash the GAC for sure right I couldn't do it with one valve.

 

[Bannerman]

Placing the GAC filter prior to the softener, will remove the chlorine so the softener resin will not be exposed. As the resin would not be in constant contact with chlorine, there is no reason to purchase more costly 10% cross link resin.

You mention a 'simple debris filter'. Is there visible debris actually in the water? The backwash cycle of the GAC filter will back flush debris that has entered the filter, out to the drain.

Have you verified your municipal water is chlorinated? More and more municipalities are choosing to use Chloramine (Chlorine and Ammonia) which is more difficult to remove, usually requiring Catalytic Carbon instead of plain GAC.

Clack's restriction in selling their valves to the DIY market, does not restrict water treatment dealers from selling and installing to clients.

The Fleck 7000 is a very good and reliable valve. Fleck, Clack and Autotrol are three respected quality brands.

 

[Brent Dacus]

BannerMan thanks
Well As I mentioned in my first post. It just general info provided by the city. I have not Built the home as of yet. The current home I live in is in another water district and I rent so no anything allowed currently. Researching and preparing for the future home. Proactive crazy I know..

So
City water > 12x54 GAC filter with Valve(for back wash) >12x54 8%resin for softening > inside home only All water hot and cold > Outside taps unsoftened.

Well I figure it just a proactive measure for a simple debris filter. It looks like I won't need it per your recommendation. So the 8% CL resin would be just as efficient as the 10%? Are they simply 8% for non chlorine use and 10% with chlorine use? OR is 10% a better overall resin?

Per the Screenshot above you are saying I should call and verify since its been 2 years on the chlorine use.

Clack's restriction is selling their valves to the DIY market but does not restrict water treatment dealers from selling and installing.

I don't have a local seller.. Are you saying I could find someone and call them they could ship a clack to me?

I would want the most efficient one of the 3 are they all equals. I was assuming the Fleck was better than the Autotrol since I can't order a Clack.

thanks again..

 

[Bannerman]

Are you saying I could find someone and call them they could ship a clack to me?

A Clack dealer shipping you a valve directly, would be selling to the DIY market. Can't say it won't happen but ...

The Fleck 5600 was/is probably the highest selling control valve of all and both Fleck and Clack products are highly respected and promoted on this site.

Autotrol have their advantages, particularly if the water contains silt and other abrasive debris. Their valve design is unique from the others and better suited for those conditions.

Since you're only in the pre-construction planning stages, it maybe premature to verify your municipality's current disinfection methods. Even if they are currently utilizing chlorine, they could later decide to switch to Chloramine.

8% crosslink is most common. Some systems contain resin which maybe lower (6-7% cl) and under normal circumstances, will work fine. I understand that while 10% will better tolerate chlorine, there maybe a slight decrease in efficiency or softening capacity, too small to be of concern.

 

[Brent Dacus]

Ok so Fleck is good. The above design is good.

So the 5600is different from the 7000 how?

Better flow rate more features?

 

[Reach4]

Ok so Fleck is good. The above design is good.

So the 5600is different from the 7000 how?

Better flow rate more features?

You can find discussions by searching in the above search box for 5600sxt 7000sxt.

The 7000 can backwash over 7 GPM. Few softeners use even 5 GPM backwash. But the 7000 has some features that I think would be somewhat useful: it can have a second quick backwash to mix up the resin after brining. Plus it refills the brine tank with softened water.

 

[Bannerman]

o the 5600is different from the 7000 how?

The 5600 while still a popular model, was designed decades ago. Its flow capacity is much lower and therefore, a 10" diameter filter tank (1.5 cuft) or 12" softener (2 cuft) is at its upper limit. The 7000 is a new design within the past few years. It is appropriate for either softeners or filters utilizing tanks from 8" to 24".

 

[ditttohead]

One thing I'll note that the pros may disagree with: As long as you're building the new home, plumb the toilets to a supply of softened but re-chlorinated water. I've found without the chlorine, mold will grow in the rim, and looks really ugly when it gets into the bowl and forms a ring. I squirt a shot of Clorox in there now and then, but it get tedious. Clorox also markets a tablet you put into the tank to do the job, but it provides a healthy dose, and I suspect it doesn't do the flapper any good.

In general, build in plumbing to supply water at various treatment levels to fixtures as required. No point in running purified and softened water to hose bibs, for example (except the one you use to wash the car).

I don't disagree at all, and yes, I am a pro.

It was common practice to not plumb toilets in softened water or the kitchen sink for many years. I even wrote a magazine article years ago discussing the benefits of softening only the hot water side of residential applications in some circumstances.

The bacterial growth issue has become very prevalent lately due to the widespread use of PEX plumbing. We constantly see large amounts of growth inside the pex tubing on non chlorinated supplies, both well and municipal water that has been dechlorinated. It seems this is not a health concern, but when you take a flashlight to someones pex and show them all the algae looking stuff fluttering inside their water pipes...

 

[ditttohead]

The 7000 has less potential for flow reduction to the house. It is a huge valve in regards to available flow rate and their is no negative to having this larger valve even in a smaller application other than its actual physical size. It pushes the equipment a few extra inches from the wall. In the majority of application this is not an issue. Their are also some special components available to mitigate this if needed.

 

[Mikey]

The bacterial growth issue has become very prevalent lately due to the widespread use of PEX plumbing. We constantly see large amounts of growth inside the pex tubing on non chlorinated supplies, both well and municipal water that has been dechlorinated. It seems this is not a health concern, but when you take a flashlight to someones pex and show them all the algae looking stuff fluttering inside their water pipes...

Yeah, yucky indeed. At first, I was just going to send the chlorinated water from the contact tank to the toilets, but couldn't depend on the level of chlorination. Now I'm thinking of using a Chemilizer pump (or equivalent precision low-volume pump, if there is one) to re-chlorinate the water coming out of the softener. That source of precisely chlorinated water could also be used to periodically disinfect the entire distribution system. The house is plumbed in CPVC right now, and occasionally I catch a whiff of swampiness (the technical term used in HVAC-land is "dirty sock syndrome") in little-used cold water fixtures. No problem seen on the hot side; I suspect it's because the solar WH storage tank gets up to 160°F on sunny days, so any biologic contamination is killed.

 

[Brent Dacus]

I don't disagree at all, and yes, I am a pro.

the algae looking stuff fluttering inside their water pipes...

We will be using pex in the new house. Now your making me wonder what I should really do. My wife wont like the idea of algae in the water.

 

[ditttohead]

Simple, spend the extra few bucks, do it right, use copper... oops, am I stirring the pot?

 

[ditttohead]

oops,

 

[Mikey]

Pot stirred . No problem with the wife and algae in the PEX; maintain a precise therapeutic chlorine level; or periodically flush the system with a disinfecting dose; or don't tell her. Or build a hybrid copper-PEX system, with copper used for a long manifold system, with PEX for the "last mile" to the fixtures, where all the crazy bends are.