It has been brought to my attention

Discussion in 'Electrical Forum discussion & Blog' started by Terry, Dec 15, 2011.

  1. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,298
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    It has been brought to my attention that sometimes the moderators here act as if they know the answers.
    I have to apologize if that's how we come off. Here is the problem. Most of us have worked in the field for decades working 40 plus hour weeks. We do this stuff in our sleep, and during our lunch breaks. We have tried every conceivable way of doing things, finding out which ways work, and which ones don't.
    It would be a rare, rare occurrence if a homeowner can think up a method that hasn't been tried before by one of us. I remember working with a homeowner with three doctor degrees, and having to hear him tell me that there is nothing in my decades of experience that could trump his mighty brain. It was pretty funny a week later when he called in a very alarmed way when his ideas were were causing him grief. I reminded him that he was only experiencing what everyone before him had, when attempting the same method of installation. There isn't really a lot new under the sun. We have made countless mistakes and countless correct installations. Like I mentioned above, we can do this stuff in our sleep.

    A second point I would like to make is this. When we broke into the trades, decades ago, we were made fun of, made to do disgusting things, worked until our hands were stiff and hurting and our backs sore. Crying wasn't allowed, nor was back talk. We had to endure whatever they came up with. We were not allowed to have our own ideas, we were only allowed to do exactly as we were told. Sometimes we had to avoid getting into fist fights when tempers got the better of people. Construction can be high stress at times. There were a few people that I worked with that thought they were cowboys. I had to remind some of them, that we had laws on the books that would consider their acts as felony's. I wasn't above taking someone to court if they wanted to assault me. I worked with 150 plumbers and 150 electricians, and of course every job was surrounded by other tradesmen. There was plenty of opportunity to be in fights.

    So my advice here is; when the old timers freely give out their hard gotten advice, seriously consider it. They have earned the right to be a little cranky.

    There are friendlier forums where you may hear things like:
    Yes, that will work. Great job! You're smarter then the tradesman working on your home. I've never done that, but it looks good.

    The old guys don't do that here. If you want nice and pleasant, you can talk to the big box "shelf stockers" and get two thumbs up on whatever you wanna dream up. The old guys here have been pulling permits and having jobs inspected for entire careers. We're not guessing anymore, and we're not working for $8.00 an hour either. But there is also no better place to learn this stuff either.
    Anyway, we invite you to learn as much as you can here. We prefer that you do get it right the first time, that everyone is safe, and everybody feels pride of accomplishment at the end of the day. It does feel much better when you know it's done right.
    Best regards,
    Terry Love
    (It helped that my fathers doctor's degree was in law. I learned a lot at dinner.)

    [​IMG]
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2011
  2. ballvalve

    ballvalve General Engineering Contractor

    Messages:
    3,261
    Location:
    northfork, california
    I'm not sure what inspired that, but I don't see alot of mod bashing going on.

    And sometimes the oldies forget to refresh themselves on new materials and processes. Easier to hit the recliner with a beer and remote than read a trade magazine.

    Give ten electricians a house to wire and you will find 10 completely different final products in details. Same for plumbers.
  3. Terry

    Terry Administrator Staff Member

    Messages:
    15,298
    Location:
    Bothell, Washington
    Don,
    I'm not sure which words you mean. I wasn't thinking of that, though now that you mention it, I'm not real comfortable with some of the words I'm seeing lately. I would like to see a G, PG and at most PG-13 rating on things here.


    [​IMG]
  4. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

    Messages:
    4,149
    Location:
    NW Ontario, Canada
    I wish my flowchart were that simple. This is more like mine. Sorry if it's not PG-13.

    [​IMG]
  5. leejosepho

    leejosepho DIY scratch-pad engineer

    There are many people other than moderators here who either know or have answers, and the only problem I have recently seen was when someone with an inadequate answer seemed to nevertheless believe that was the only possible one ... and actually, just about any of us here could be guilty of that at one time or another.

    Great site, Terry!
  6. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

    Messages:
    2,559
    Location:
    North Carolina
    Did I make someone mad?

    I don’t have a BS, masters, or a PHD but I shore can throw out some BS and have no problem Pilling it High and Deep. I have mastered this trait. So there you go I can BS, Master it, and Pile it High and Deep. I also clean the barn which is proof that anyone can see this is true.

    I teach several different classes at RCC. One is electrical theory where we do things such as resistors, capacitors, and inductors connected both in series and parallel. Anyone that has ever taken this type course knows this is a math based course.
    I have several books that I reference when I explain what is happening with the electrical energy that is flowing through these circuits. We even do something that would never be done in the field such as connecting a 100 watt light bulb at 120 volts to a ground rod to see if it will come on. We then remove the light fixture and connect the breaker straight to the rod to see if it trips the breaker. In over a decade of doing this no less than 4 times a year I have never seen the blub glow or the breaker trip.

    Just today I attended a seminar on the 2011 code which deals with new technology on the market. I attend no less than 8 of these seminars a year. Shucks I sometimes do as I did today and teach part of the program. When this happens and the audience is asking questions the instructor had better be able to answer those questions or the class falls apart and the attendees don’t return.

    These seminars are given all over the state and contractors and inspectors are attending. NC requires that electrical contractors get 8 hours and electrical inspectors get 6 hours of continuing education each year in order to keep their license and certificates.
    In order to be certified as an instructor by the state licensing board one has to hold a license in the highest level given in the state. Here they call it an Unlimited license.
    In order to be certified by the Department of Insurance to teach electrical inspectors one has to hold the highest certificate offered by the state. Here in NC that is a Level III.
    What this means is that I hold an Unlimited Electrical License and I am a Qualified Level III Electrical Inspector by the state of NC. If it can be built I can not only wire it but I can inspect it. I just can’t inspect my own work.

    This was not posted to sound like I am bragging but to let you know that I am not just posting something to make me sound smarter than anyone else but I am posting those things I know about. If you pay close attention there are several threads that I don’t post in at all. It may very well be that I don’t know the answer or much about the matter being discussed is the reason for my silence.

    Now for the serious stuff.
    I have been charged with the position of moderating this part of this site. I have a lot of respect for the owner of this site and I will do everything in my power to show that respect by deleting any language that I wouldn’t stand in front of my maker and repeat. This is no reflection on the poster but a reflection on my respect for the owner of this site.
    If someone got real bad with their language or abuse of another member I would send that poster a PM letting them know why I deleted their post as well as sending a copy of that message to Terry for his approval or disapproval. I am sure that if he felt that I had erred he would let me know at which time I would replace the deleted post.

    I don’t think that it is asking too much to ask the members to refrain from using undesirable language on this site. One might ask just what undesirable language is. I would say it would be anything that you wouldn’t stand in front of a judge and say. Anything you wouldn’t say in church.

    In closing let me add one more comment. It is your safety that concerns me the most. Should someone post some unsafe method of doing something I promise I will lash out and may be rude. I promise I will let my opinion be known.

    I welcome any comments on this post.

    Mike
  7. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

    Messages:
    2,559
    Location:
    North Carolina
    You are very welcome for that nothing.
  8. DonL

    DonL Jack of all trades Master of one

    Messages:
    4,444
    Location:
    Houston, TX
    Mike You are Very Knowledgeable , that is well known.

    When it comes to a Moderator, I am not so sure.

    I do Know that many users leave this site because they feel like a DA, And their posts get edited for no reason.

    If You and Terry think that is OK, More Power to both of You.

    I will not include this website on my Web links when you have the thought that your Poop don't stink.

    You Are NO better than the rest of the Users on This Forum, That includes Myself.

    I think that You need to wake up and smell Reality.

    You may be working too hard...

    I am here for Users that need help, Not to go thru the BS that most users have to endure.


    If I am full of Poop , Please tell me so. Don't Edit my post, Just because You disagree.
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 15, 2011
  9. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

    Messages:
    2,559
    Location:
    North Carolina

    the only editing that I have done to anyone's post is to remove ugly language and I will continue to do this even if someone doesn't like it or until Terry tells me not to

    I have not and will not edit someone's post because we disagree on something. I will make my own post showing why I disagree.

    Look closely at the post between post 4 and 5. You can see very clearly who deletes post. Look closely at your last post. It clearly states that you edited your own post. That will reflect something different in just a short while when I edit the ugly word you posted for the reason of editing your own post. This kind of language is uncalled for on a public forum.

    Now show me where I deleted anything.
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2011
  10. jimbo

    jimbo Plumber

    Messages:
    8,997
    Location:
    San Diego
    Compared to some other forums, I think we let a little of the wild west happen here! As moderators, we just try to maintain some modicum of civility, but let everone have their say. Personally, I don't ever edit someone's post to remove any part of it. I have deleted posts, but only blatant spammers, never a member posting a comment.
    By virtue of the level of experience which most of the plumbers and electricians on here have, they WILL have opinions about how things are done. They also have the benefit of that experience and a lot of hindsight, to share what can and will go wrong! Sometimes the posters are hoping for a job to be easier or less expensive. They may not realize or accept that they have taken too big a bite from the apple. We still have to "tell it like it is"
    There is a fine line, often debated, about what projects a homeowner should and should not undertake. I think the forum will continue to both advise against certain work, AND provide the information necessary to do it properly if it is going to be done.

    I am confident that this will continue to be the finest forum on the web, and speaking for myself, I have broad shoulders and a hard head! If I say something wrong or you know a better way, just say it. Doesn't hurt my feelings and ultimately the MORE information that is put out, the better we will serve those who use the forum.
  11. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

    Messages:
    27,043
    Location:
    Cave Creek, Arizona
    LLIg, your flow chart looks like the ones we used when we programmed computers back in the 60's.

    Terry, re your second paragraph:
    When we broke into the trades, decades ago, we were made fun of, made to do disgusting things, worked until our hands were stiff and hurting and our backs sore. Crying wasn't allowed, nor was back talk. We had to endure whatever they came up with.

    No one made fun of me, at least not to my face, I assigned the "disgusting things" to the journeymen, and seldom got backtalk. I think I made a few "jouneymen" cry, however, at least when they got a few beers into them and someone asked about "that apprentice". I guess after 60 years doing plumbing, electrical, heating, home building, etc., residntial, commercial, and industrial, I can be egotistical enough to think I DO know the answers most of the time.
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2011
  12. leejosepho

    leejosepho DIY scratch-pad engineer

    That is the bottom line for everyone here. Anybody can have an answer, but only an arrogant fool might think s/he always has the final answer.
  13. mtcummins

    mtcummins In the Trades

    Messages:
    380
    Location:
    Pittsburgh PA
    I have not made any complaints or anything, but I have to at least partially agree with Don. While I do respect the level of knowledge jw has, I don't respect him as a moderator. I've been exasperated by the WAY he responds to things, not so much the information contained in the responses. If I didn't have pretty thick skin, and a relatively good idea of what I was talking about, I would have been likely to leave this site due to some of the posts he's made. I know enough to know why he's saying what he's saying, even if I disagree with him. If I didn't have that background, I would have often assumed he was just a jack*** (edited it myself, no need jw) and probably given up on the leadership of the site. I imagine many people feel this way, but I'll let people speak for themselves.

    There are a few people on here that I feel that way about, but jw is the only one of those people who is also a moderator. I hold him to a higher standard.
  14. DonL

    DonL Jack of all trades Master of one

    Messages:
    4,444
    Location:
    Houston, TX
    I think this was the one that someone may have been referring to.

    It was a Very Nice Post that you Originally posted Yourself, and later Deleted.

    They may have thought it was another users post.
  15. jwelectric

    jwelectric Electrical Contractor/Instructor

    Messages:
    2,559
    Location:
    North Carolina
    I have learned the hard way that it is not wise to post pictures of yourself and leave them there for any extended length of time.
    With todays photo shopping someone could make one look like a fool.
  16. DonL

    DonL Jack of all trades Master of one

    Messages:
    4,444
    Location:
    Houston, TX
    I understand.

    They were nice, for the short time that we had to enjoy them.
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2011

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