ISOBAR Automatic Filter Control Valve & R/O advice

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Gary Slusser

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It does happen, I tore town and flushed a WS-1 last week. 9ppm iron. Plugged the valve just about solid in less than a year of service.
I guess your customer wasn't using the right volume of Iron Out when and how he should have been.

What in the valve was just about plugged solid? And what did you have to do to get the stack out?
 

NHmaster

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It was is set to soften, The customer bought the unit online. The customer never used Iron out or any product and didn't know he had too. The entire valve head was a mess. I'm not sure how my service tech got the stack out, I assume he hooked a finger in and lifted it out. On the plus side all he had to do was flush the crap out of it, Iron out the bed and backflush it to get is up and running again. I have only had battery back up problems with the WS-1 and my factory rep told me it was a known issue. Then again I don't have all that many ws-1's in service in this area.
 

Akpsdvan

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That customer might have been using some form of iron out in the salt... Morten with resin guard is a form of iron out and salt... but if the rest of the valve was loaded... it happens to every valve that is out there, untreated side of the valve take a beating when it comes to iron build up.

That flow through valve of Clack, the 1190 is a great one for upflow neutralizers ... makes filling the tank so much nicer than the in on the right and out on the left types or using a 2nd tank adapter from a twin set up...

And that bypass... a little different from the one fleck came out with years ago but a great bypass, full flow through.. and that is sweet...
 

Gary Slusser

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It was is set to soften, The customer bought the unit online. The customer never used Iron out or any product and didn't know he had too. The entire valve head was a mess. I'm not sure how my service tech got the stack out, I assume he hooked a finger in and lifted it out.
Yep, all 7 seals is it with a spacer between them and only a finger tip is needed to remove them as one piece instead of all those separate seals and spacers in a Fleck that don't want to come out even with the special model specific Fleck tools even if there is no dirt build up.

On the plus side all he had to do was flush the crap out of it, Iron out the bed and backflush it to get it up and running again. I have only had battery back up problems with the WS-1 and my factory rep told me it was a known issue. Then again I don't have all that many ws-1's in service in this area.
Those 2 dozen iron ruined control valves you have in the back room, how many are the Clack WS-1 and do you want to sell them?
 

Akpsdvan

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1500,2500,2510,2750 are a bit of a challenge with out the pull and push tools, they can be done, the larger valves, and 5600 do not need the tool as fingers do very nicely..
Using the Channel Lock type is a no no on the Clack as it Could brake the plastic parts.. and warranty out the door... There is a Clack wrench that can turn just about every nut or form of nut that is on the valve.... and is the tool for working on the valve..


Almost forgot, just about every Fleck has a way of doing No Hard Water Bypass in a piston... there is not one listed for the clack, so to do that there would need to be a Solenoid put in place with a switch to close that solenoid while the unit is in a cleaning cycle if the need for no untreated water getting past the control.
 
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Gary Slusser

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1500,2500,2510,2750 are a bit of a challenge with out the pull and push tools, they can be done, the larger valves, and 5600 do not need the tool as fingers do very nicely..
Using the Channel Lock type is a no no on the Clack as it Could brake the plastic parts.. and warranty out the door... There is a Clack wrench that can turn just about every nut or form of nut that is on the valve.... and is the tool for working on the valve..
Careful use of pliers works but I include the wrench with all Clack WS-1 control valves.

Almost forgot, just about every Fleck has a way of doing No Hard Water Bypass in a piston... there is not one listed for the clack, so to do that there would need to be a Solenoid put in place with a switch to close that solenoid while the unit is in a cleaning cycle if the need for no untreated water getting past the control.
Yes there is a no hard water bypass piston, just read about it about last Wednesday when checking that I had the latest version manual and looking up an error code definition and possible causes.
 

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Then you should be using the Fleck 5600 tools, especially on those plugged up with rust because I know fingers alone aren't going to get the spacers out.

Peter, you said you tore down and flushed iron out of a Clack last week and then you say your tech did it and you don't know how he got the stack out... You also said you had a dozen valves loaded up with rust in the back room when we were talking about the Clack yet now you say none of them are Clack...
 

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Here we go again.......

The starter is long gone and we are acting like the school play ground bully...

Every valve has pros and cons and falls pray to the Save problems in water treatment.

Iron build up
Seals going bad
Spacers loading up and a pain to get out
Injectors pluging
Pistons getting scoring

There are some that are more user friendly and there are some that are not
There are some that the parts are easy to get and there are others that only the Corp store is the place to get them
Some clean up easy some not so easy
Some are to last for 10's of years others maybe 5 years and need to be replaced.


Any one can be an expert in another part of the country, few can be an expert to the people that they see every day in the local stores.
 

NHmaster

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I have 6 guys that work for me. I personally have not done Jack in the field for almost 5 years. I assume he pulled it out by hand but I'll ask him this morning when he comes in. I never said I had any Clack valves back there, in fact I think I said I did'nt have any Clack valves back there and there and I'll bet theres more than a dozen back there though I suppose I could run on back and count them too if you need me too. It's a motly collection of GE's, Autotrols, some Flecks, Kinetico's, all the usual stuff. Clack's have not been around these parts for them to start showing up in the junk pile yet. No need for arguing with me about Clack valves. I like them. I sell them , we install them and I've said many times that for an electronic, demand metered valve, Clack is my current valve of choice.
 
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Skip Wolverton

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Here we go again.......

The starter is long gone and we are acting like the school play ground bully...

Every valve has pros and cons and falls pray to the Save problems in water treatment.

Iron build up
Seals going bad
Spacers loading up and a pain to get out
Injectors pluging
Pistons getting scoring

There are some that are more user friendly and there are some that are not
There are some that the parts are easy to get and there are others that only the Corp store is the place to get them
Some clean up easy some not so easy
Some are to last for 10's of years others maybe 5 years and need to be replaced.


Any one can be an expert in another part of the country, few can be an expert to the people that they see every day in the local stores.
Could not have said it better. Gary has a habit of making people look bad if they don't agree. I don't like electronics and he thinks I don't like the Clack valve. I have worked on them and found they are easy to work on (and so are the Big Box store to me), but it has electronics. I can buy it cheaper than a 5600 but choose it over the Clack because of the electronics. All units have their own unque problems. Clack included (and no I don't know what that is YET Gary).
 

Gary Slusser

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I've serviced softeners and filters for many years on more than 9 ppm of iron and I have never seen a control valve that was loaded up with rust that prevented it from operating or easily being rebuilt.

I've never seen that happen but I have heard many plumbers, well drillers and plumbing supply house counter people selling Autotrol say it does. Yet you guys go on as if a Clack WS-1 would have the same problem.

I've never replaced a control valve because of rust build up. That includes Autotrol, Brunner, Erie, Fleck, Water-Right, WaterCare, Kenmore, Culligan, General Ionics etc. etc. etc.. Yet you guys do, one has 2 dozen in the back room!

If you look at flow charts for the Clack and Fleck they'll show you that the inlet water comes in and goes in between two seals through a spacer and around the piston from the side and drops down into the tank. Look at the pictures below and you can see rust on the spacers but none on the edge of the seals tht seal on the inside of the hole the stack comes out of.

Now how you guys think rust is going to stop a Teflon coated or slick plastic piston from moving is beyond me. The piston seals and spacer design in the Clack is the same identical design as is used in Fleck. And there is no way that rust build up is going to prevent the Clack stack from being removed as you guys imply.
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DSC02492 (Medium)..jpg
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DSC02495..jpg
 

Akpsdvan

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I know what I have found in the valves in the field..
Say what you will, but I know what I have found..
 

NHmaster

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I'm done. I can only report what I have seen. I don't understand why it requires an argument. I never ever said that we replaced the clack valve or any of the parts for that matter. My service guy pulled it apart, cleaned the stack and put it back together. What you have seen or not seen is irrelavent because every installation is different and water conditions differ. We get iron, lots and lots of iron. It clogs filters, valves and water pumps. You want to take a trip out and check my junk pile then by all means gas up the motor home and stop on by. I'll even throw a steak on the barbie for ya.
 

Akpsdvan

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I am going to have to start taking some photos of the valves loaded with iron.....

Box is full,, no messeages......
 

Gary Slusser

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I know what I have found in the valves in the field..
Say what you will, but I know what I have found..
Fair enough, so tell us what you've found with a Clack WS-1 and describe it. The problem is you implied the Clack probably has the same problems the Fleck has.

Here's what you said; "Let me know how that seal pack comes out when it is loaded with iron build up.............

While the Fleck does not have the Pack,,, it is seals and spacers and one of the spacers may get broken while coming out, it is only one and can be replaced by one spacer .. the seal pack if it does not come out easy... then it is lost and will have to be replace in total just like the culligan seal pack.."

By "seal pack" you mean the Clack WS-1 stack, the gray thing in my picture. And you compare it to Fleck's separate seals and spacers, which is fine but has nothing to do with the rust/iron build up causing the Clack the problem is does in the Fleck. That's all I'm saying, what you see in Fleck doesn't mean Clack has the same problems. And since I seem to have been involved with Clack for 6 yrs longer than you, maybe I know more about the Clack WS-1 than you or Peter do.

I have this valve treating raw water out of the Colorado River in Texas. I mention that because when it rains down there in Spring TX, it's the dirtiest water I can think of right now. I have it on a mixed bed turbidity filter backwashing every 3 or 4 days, I can't recall which. I talked to the owner when he ordered chlorine pellets last fall, he's a dentist and has a 'summer' place on the river. He also has the Clack on a Centaur filter and a softener there. He bought it all 1/8/2006, 4+ yrs ago. I also have the Clack WS-1 on softeners on up to 13 ppm of iron.

You also have said in this thread on page 2, "When there is a seal cage in the valve if one of the incoming spacers gets loaded with iron it will stick to the inside of the valve making it hard to get out.. add to that when a spacer is screwed into the next spacer.. it is even more of a challenge to get out with out any damage to the spacer.".

Look at the picture of the stack I posted, that doesn't/can't happen with the the Clack WS-1 stack.

Screwed into the next spacer? There is a seal between the spacers in both the Fleck and Clack valves. So I'm not understanding what you're referring to but it doesn't apply to the Clack WS-1; which is what we are talking about.

Rust on spacers, you simply blow or beat it off or use a toothbrush to clean it off or like I always did, replace the spacers with the seals. I never reused either, or installed new on an old piston or a new piston in old seals and spacers.

I have not seen or heard from a customer yet that rust sticks inside the hole the Clack stack goes into in the valve body but, I agree that Fleck spacers won't come out easily if anything is lining the inside of the hole they are in in the valve body, that's why they make the special model specific Fleck tools to get them out.
 
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Gary Slusser

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I'm done. I can only report what I have seen. I don't understand why it requires an argument. I never ever said that we replaced the clack valve or any of the parts for that matter. My service guy pulled it apart, cleaned the stack and put it back together. What you have seen or not seen is irrelavent because every installation is different and water conditions differ. We get iron, lots and lots of iron. It clogs filters, valves and water pumps. You want to take a trip out and check my junk pile then by all means gas up the motor home and stop on by. I'll even throw a steak on the barbie for ya.
I agree with reporting what you've seen but you haven't seen a Clack WS-1 stop because of rust build up.

Here's what you said in your second reply in this thread: " Like I said, I have probably 2 dozen iron ruined valves in my storage room"

But you hadn't already said anything like that. And later we find out there isn't one in the Storage room that is a Clack WS-1. And if there were any I'd be asking why you are replacing valves instead of repairing them...

Your next reply was; "It does happen, I tore town and flushed a WS-1 last week. 9ppm iron. Plugged the valve just about solid in less than a year of service."

Then you said; "It was is set to soften, The customer bought the unit online. The customer never used Iron out or any product and didn't know he had too. The entire valve head was a mess. I'm not sure how my service tech got the stack out, I assume he hooked a finger in and lifted it out. On the plus side all he had to do was flush the crap out of it, Iron out the bed and backflush it to get is up and running again."

So you haven't had or seen a problem with getting the stack out of a Clack WS-1 either.

But you seemed to say you had when agreeing with AKpsdvan when he said there should be a problem because of the problems with Fleck spacers not coming out with any build up in the hole in the valve body.

Now I'll ask you what was wrong with that softener with the Clack WS-1 because you made it sound as if rust in the stack caused a problem, specifically, how was that rust a problem?
 
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Akpsdvan

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This thread is now spinning in a very tight circle and going no where very fast........
 
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