Is there a Flange bolt with square shoulder so bolt can't turn while tightening?

[CountryBumkin]

I installed toilet the other day with 5/16 brass flange bolts, and I noticed the flange bolts wanting to turn as I tightened the nuts. I marked the top of the flange bolt with a line showing direction of the "foot of bolt" so I could make sure the bolt did not turn so that it could come out of the slot in the flange.

It would have been easier if the flange bolt had a square shoulder just above the foot to keep it from rotating in the slot. Is there such a bolt? it seems likely that the bolt could turn enough to let it "pull through" the flange while tightening the nut.

Maybe if I had installed a nut on the flange to hold it place before setting the toilet this would not have been an issue.

This is flange type I have (PVC)

 

[Reach4]

Like this, from a 1989 patent.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Standardairconditioner]

There's a reason why flange bolts are not fastened to the flange, this is so we can twist the toilet to alignment on the install.

You can try a thin snap push washer. That will fasten it to the flange without compromising height.

Nuts going over the bolts should be really loose too. Basically you should be able to use your hand to get them down, and only wrench it when it contacts the bowl.

This may be part of your problem, as you are getting your nut down, the threads are so rough (or possible the wrong nut entirely), you are forced to use a wrench, and that is turning the bolt.

A lot of flange bolts are brass plated, they cost less, you can tell they look real bright. Try to get some real brass flange bolts, they will be darker, more subdued, and usually allow for hand tightening as I described.

 

[CountryBumkin]

I got "real" brass flange bolts and they came with the nuts, SS washers and plastic "push-on" washers.
When I installed the flange bolts, I used the plastic "push on" washer to hold the bolt in place before setting the toilet. I also used the Sani-Seal instead of wax.

Everything worked out fine - I just felt like there was a potential that that the stud could turn enough that the foot on the bolt would be aligned with the flange slot, and then maybe pull out. I would think that the manufacturers of these flange bolts would make the foot of the bolt wide enough that it would not be able to pull thought the flange no matter what position the foot is in.

The flange bolt did want to turn as I snugged up the nut. I held the top of the bolt with needle-nose pliers and gently snugged up the nut being aware that over tightening could crack the toilet.


The picture Reach4 posted would be the ideal flange bolt, IMO. If it was "available somewhere" and in brass.

 

[CountryBumkin]

I was searching for more info and bolt sources and found this nice illustration in another plumbing forum showing the issue I am describing. Obviously this isn't a new complaint.

On the left is the typical flange bolt where the "T" foot of the bolt is too small to wedge against the side of the flange and not spin. On the right is a flange bolt with a large enough T-foot to allow it jam against the side of the flanges slot and prevent spinning.

Why isn't the bolt design with the larger T-foot available (and why isn't this the typical bolt supplied)? I did find the bolts with the "square shoulders" in plastic at Furguson https://www.ferguson.com/category/p...installation-supplies/closet-bolts/_/N-zbq4jp - and would gladdy have bought these had I know of them.

Also, it seems that many people (plumbers?) on the forums like to add a washer and nut to the brass style flange bolt before setting toilet to hold the bolt from turning - and an equal number seem to oppose this idea (for reasons mentioned above) including fine-tuning the toilet's position after installing. I guess this is not an exact science.

 

[Standardairconditioner]

It's not an issue because we can test the rotation of the flange bolt just before it is tightened to the bowl, and then re-rotate it back into the approximate proper spin so that the plate will indeed contact the flange well.

There also should not be anything inside the flange like your first photo, which shows it full of wax. That is useless and obstructs the flange bolts to be positioned.

 

[Reach4]

I think the narrow part of the T head should be wide enough to not pull through the slot. In this picture, I have imagined the head beneath the narrow part of the slot.

I guess with an all-plastic flange, there is the worry that the narrow part of the plastic slot would get deformed. The flanges with the metal ring as part of the flange should not have that worry.

 

[Koa]

When I want a bigger flange on the toilet bolt, I slip a solid brass washer over a solid brass toilet flange bolt and solder it on. Then I grind the washer square to fit the flange. No rotation and a bit more surface area against the flange.

 

[Plumbs Away]

I installed toilet the other day with 5/16 brass flange bolts, and I noticed the flange bolts wanting to turn as I tightened the nuts. I marked the top of the flange bolt with a line showing direction of the "foot of bolt" so I could make sure the bolt did not turn so that it could come out of the slot in the flange.

It would have been easier if the flange bolt had a square shoulder just above the foot to keep it from rotating in the slot. Is there such a bolt? it seems likely that the bolt could turn enough to let it "pull through" the flange while tightening the nut.

Maybe if I had installed a nut on the flange to hold it place before setting the toilet this would not have been an issue.
View attachment 33443 View attachment 33444
This is flange type I have (PVC)

I, too, used to worry about the bolt turning in the slot, so now I do tighten the bolts to the flange with a nut before adding the seal (wax or waxless) and setting the toilet bowl. Works like a charm!

 

[Jadnashua]

First, the all-plastic toilet flanges are third on the list with steel rings maybe second, with one using a SS ring on the top (well, CI may be the top). Most quality bolts in a quality flange do not spin but they'll wobble a bunch, and many plumbers DO double nut them, to anchor the bolt to the flange. It doesn't take much to measure to get them where they need to be, and it's a lot easier setting the toilet down on a rigid bolt than one that wants to fall over or bend out of the way. Most toilets have a bolt hole in them large enough to accommodate a slight miscalculation.

 

[hj]

The oval head of the bolt will go through the enlarged opening at the end of the slot, (or open slots on the sides of some flanges), but NOT come through the slots themselves. WE use a nut TIGHTENED to the flange to prevent turning when we have to REMOVE the toilet, not install it.

 

[Jadnashua]

If you don't put the nut on BEFORE you install the toilet, you can't put one on to keep it from turning to REMOVE it, so it is semantics about why and when it is installed. It also keeps the things from tilting when setting the toilet down, which often makes things easier.

 

[Reach4]

If you don't put the nut on BEFORE you install the toilet, you can't put one on to keep it from turning to REMOVE it, so it is semantics about why and when it is installed.

What?? I call bull.

 

[Larry S]

What?? I call bull.

This is just nuts.

 

[hj]

quote; If you don't put the nut on BEFORE you install the toilet, you can't put one on to keep it from turning to REMOVE it, so it is semantics about why and when it is installed.

You have to uncrew your head. OBVIOUSLY the second nut is installed BEFORE you install the toilet. That prevents the bolt from turning when you secure the toilet and ALSO keeps it from turning when you remove the toilet. NO SEMANTICS, just common sense, which someone does not seem to have.

 

[Jadnashua]

Look at it this way...if you put a nut to anchor the bolt to the flange, it will stand up, you can set the toilet easier, and, as a potential benefit, maybe decades later, someone might find it easier to remove the toilet. The last one I removed had been in there for 50-years...I had to saw the nut off. Not a big deal, so what is the real reason to use the second nut? Some unknown time in the future, or the instant gratification of being able to not have the silly bolt get knocked sideways when trying to maneuver that 30-40# beast down onto the things? The bolts won't spin while you're trying to tighten the nuts down, either. So, my reason to use them is to make installation easier...HJ says he prefers to make it easier for someone else, maybe decades down the road to remove the thing. Bottom line, they have to be there when it is installed for either scenario to be viable. Your choice.

 

[FullySprinklered]

I use the nylon bolts. They have a square base, they have a lip that keeps them from falling through, and they are much easier to trim off after you tighten the nut. Not everyone likes them, but I do.

 

[Koa]

View attachment 33445 Like this, from a 1989 patent.

There's also this one...