Iridescent Particles in Ardex's 8+9 Waterproofing - A closer look

Discussion in 'Shower & bathtub Forum & Blog' started by johnfrwhipple, Oct 26, 2012.

  1. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

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    Ardex 8+9 with Kerdi

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    Last edited: Mar 18, 2014
  2. Daler

    Daler New Member

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    ..continuing the conversation..

    Last edited: Jan 8, 2013
  3. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

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    For a homeowner that doesn't have to deal with lots of tradesmen stomping around the construction site, the thickness of the membrane is not that big a deal. It also makes for less buildup in corners and overlaps. For a typical residential install, the difference in permeability is not generally a factor either. Once you cover it with tile, the thickness is irrelevant - is 1/8" glass more waterproof than 1/2" plate glass? Is one stronger, certainly, but at what cost. Prior to tiling, ANY membrane, paint on or sheet should be protected on the floor. If the backing material is solid, the walls pretty much take care of themselves. Use the stuff you have and don't worry, just be considerate of the material.
  4. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

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    Ardex Schluter ten year warranty

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  5. Daler

    Daler New Member

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    Good points you made here, John. There are only a few areas of concern regarding the gaps. And yes all the corners and seams are supported by blocking -- there is NO deflection anywhere. Now, I did not go to the extent and block every Hardi edge including putting blocking laterally ..that is, between the studs and along the bottom edges of the Hardi. They are however, supported 16" oc. In fact the back pony wall was built 12" on center.
    The only real concern was one corner where I forgot to extend the stud a bit more from the corner. So I had to run the screws in on an angle to catch the stud ..and still be at least 3/8" from the Hardi edge. The board is seated well on the existing stud though.

    I guess the boards could be taken down and rehung a little closer together, but that would still provide a gap at some other location. Another alternative would be to yank them and recut some new ones. All a BPITB. Your idea of mudding using some fg stucco mesh seems most feasible and I will use that to beef up those corner gaps and breakouts.

    To reiterate as appears in one of your other threads, when you did that full shower with 8+9 you actually thinsetted (with mesh) all the Hardi seams and corners before applying the 8+9?? If so, then that's what I will do as I agree that it makes less sense to just fill with 8+9 (and mesh) alone.

    As for scratch coating, that will be done when the seams are all taped -- thanks for that tip. I remember when the main bath surround was tiled with 12" marble, it took some practice to finally get the thinset to stick as the Hardi was so thirsty. I wound up pre-wetting the surface.

    And as for testing the product -- ok, you convinced me -- I'll follow some of your examples and test the product before use. Yer right, this is a one-shot attempt and I don't want to regret it later :eek:
    BTW, as an aside how much area does a box of 8+9 actually fully cover? ie, will one box be enough for a 3'x5' 3-wall (to ceiling) compartment?

    Regarding warranties ..methinks the replacement of Ardex materials might happen, but I doubt any labour, other materials, structural damage and the fact I am not a pro will most probably preclude any claim I might make :rolleyes: So, I'm not too worried as long as I'm confident everything has been covered here.

    I will look forward to your "hand mixer" test soon. If your hunch works out then we can drop by a local thrift shop and pick one up ..providing they use the same type beaters :)
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2013
  6. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

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    Mixing Ardex 8+9 with a mix master

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  7. Daler

    Daler New Member

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    I suspect this thread may now be at risk of being hijacked by my own concerns. If need be it can be moved to another topic ..just lemme know where ;)

    Are there any special concerns regarding the installing of large format tiles on the shower walls (ie, 12x24 & thinset considerations)?

    And for traction, we are thinking on putting in a natural 'sawn' pebble shower floor. To get full coverage/bedding of those rocks, can they just be fully embedded in gray thinset (like Ardex X5) without any topical grouting? Would it be best to be taken off their mesh backing and installed one at a time? What about water puddling?

    Also, I'm thinking on ordering a Better Bench. I've read that they are the cat's ass for a nice simple easy-to-prep in-shower seat. What's your experience with them?
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  8. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

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    Hardie Board and Ardex 8+9 - watch out for bond breakers

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  9. Daler

    Daler New Member

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    ....................

  10. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

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    Post(s) removed by John Whipple
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  11. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

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    I installed a corner Better Bench in my mother's shower. They advocate either installing it on top of the tile, or to the wall, then tile around it. I opted to tile first, then install the bench since there would be lots fewer cuts. This means drilling holes through your tile and waterproofing the hole, which needs to be done with care. It's easier if you installed blocking first, since your holes will be smaller. It feels a little flimsy until you fill it up with deckmud. I found that you needed to be careful trying to get the corner bench to slope properly since it appeared to be essentially built without that slope (wouldn't be an issue on a bench along one side or the back wall and a side). I suppose you could slope it only against one wall, but I wanted it to slope from the corner. I didn't feel comfortable trying one that was entirely cantelevered which is why I chose a corner one (although I could have used a rectangular one). The corner one was enough space, and it didn't impact the size of the standing area as much. When thinsetting on the tile, the edges are a little tougher, since the thinset will only get a really good bond to the deckmud that is exposed by the holes in the metal seat...it will bond some to the metal, but most of the bond will be to the deckmud, so careful burning in of the thinset is critical. There's no problem with the top since it is all deckmud.

    If you want to make a box, then you might consider KerdiBoard or WediBoard. That could be tied directly into the waterproofing of the shower more easily.

    It's best to have a steeper slope when using river rock or pebbles on a shower floor verses tile. While some thinsets might be okay, most are not designed as an exposed, wear surface. They tend to be more porous, and would collect more crud. There are some grouts that you could use to set them, though that would avoid that problem.
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2013
  12. johnfrwhipple

    johnfrwhipple I love these ACO Shower Drains - Best in Class

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  13. Daler

    Daler New Member

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    Ok, good point -- thanks ;)
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2013
  14. Daler

    Daler New Member

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    A generous offer, John -- thanks. But if I can make do with similar is also fine with me, so..

    I called the only supplier in town that carries most of the Ardex product line. They do not carry the SK tape as their trades don't use it much. As indicated, it would be special order in large quantity. He instead suggested the Mapei Reinforcing Fabric used for Aquadefense (which to me looks similar to that of large format drywall mesh tape) of which I already had purchased in small bulk :

    http://www.lowes.com/pd_185276-1295-0170007_4294715678__?productId=3167753&Ns=p_product_avg_rating%7C1&pl=1&currentURL=%3Fpage%3D2%26Ns%3Dp_product_avg_rating%7C1&facetInfo=
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2013
  15. Daler

    Daler New Member

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    ................
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2013
  16. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

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    The shower was a tub replacement, 30x60. Some tile and surfaces are so smooth or dense that thinset may not stick easily...dense porcelain is an example. If the thinset is mixed well, you usually get a decent bond, but especially with a bigger tile where you can't exert as much force per sq in, it really makes a huge difference if you burn a coat on the back of the tile, and you will see a difference burning it in on the floor first before spreading and notching the thinset just prior to setting the tile. Essentially, you do this by using the flat side of the trowel at a shallow angle and literally pressing hard as you spread some thinset over the entire surface. Think of buttering bread. With a porcelain tile, you may notice that it sort of beads up on your first pass, but once you've burned it into the pores, the only way to get the back of the tile clean is to wash it off. Once you have a layer intimately coating the back, you use the same flat edge to scrape off any excess and give you an effectively flat back surface. Once you then set it into the thinset, since it already has a full coat, it sticks MUCH better and you're assured of 100% coverage, assuming you spread your thinset properly first. This procedure is recommended for any large format tile. Smaller ones typically can be pressed and seated well enough without it, but it still doesn't hurt (except in the time it takes).
  17. Daler

    Daler New Member

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    Ah yes ..a similar process I used for my 12x12 marble tiles on the last project, only I called it back-buttering. A test tile setting back then had me amend my method -- it did seem to stick much better. I've read where some folks will notch the thinset on the back of the tile instead then 'burn' in some thinset on the wall ..a reverse idea I guess.
  18. Daler

    Daler New Member

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    So, moving on.. when applying large format tiles, I was thinking on using some sort of leveling devices like I've seen online. Looking back I wish this had been used in my bathtub surround walls because, as much as I tried, they are not on a 100% flat plane. I believe it's called, lippage.

    The local HD has items call 'Lash' spacers and wedges. My concerns would be: will they work ok for an amateur -- will I need 4 hands to manipulate the tiles and those gizmos? Won't the spacer bottoms raise the tiles too much in the thinset? And will they provide a nice 1/16" grout line?
  19. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

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    The QEP Lash clips do work. The TLS system also works. The tool for the TLS system and the clips make it a little more expensive plus, the prep for using the TLS straps must be soaked overnight, so you need to remember. In both systems, you can reuse parts (the wedges or the clips) a number of times, so may not need as many of them as the straps. This assumes you aren't going to do it all in one day - you only need enough for that, since you can remove them the next day and reuse. And no, you shouldn't need 4-hands to make it work. The straps are about that 1/16" (you'd have to double-check their specs), so yes, a thin grout line is quite possible.
  20. Daler

    Daler New Member

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    Thanks. From their directions it looks like the Lash clip bottoms remain in the substrate ..one has to separate them by knocking off the tops once the thinset has dried, is this not correct? If this is the case, how can the clips be reused?
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