Ionics 1030B is having issues installed around 2000

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ditttohead

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The media guard is one of the best, and worst items in this industry. It works very well if it is installed correctly and maintained properly. Unfortunately, I have been to way to many places that had them installed improperly and they caused a lot of problems.

The most important part of the media guard is that it must have the DLFC adjusted correctly. And they will flow much past 10 GPM. Assuming a water temperature of 65 degrees, the DLFC should be adjusted to 4.0-4.5 GPM. A standard 10" tank will be set at 2.4 GPM, this is too low for the media guard to self clean, and it will fail in a short amount of time. They should be changed out every 3-5 years maximum. Remember, these only 3-4 pounds of media inside of them, that is a tiny amount of media for a POE residential application. Even at that small amount,they are surprisingly effective. I can understand Garys and many peoples reluctance to selling the Media guard. Too many people did not know how to use them properly or misapplied them and they will restrict flow rates etc. Many people see that they reduce chlorine, and then expect the media guard to work after chlorine injection...

I recommend it on smaller houses only, up to 2 bathrooms max. Change it every 3 years max, use the proper DLFC, and they are actually quite good. But if someone says not to use it, I would not argue with them either.

I doubt the media guard could be added to your existing system. We sell a huge number of media guards and have had nearly zero problems in the past 5 years with them,
 

KimbaWLion

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I remember the first time I had my Silver carbon replaced by the Ionics repair person. He poured it RIGHT in the top of the head!
So I figured on my unit that was what you did. The Media guard looked to me on the surface to be a neat and inexpensive way to kill 2
stones in one shot pretty cost effectively. I mean you see my install with the vertical bypass mount. I think the only way to add a separate carbon
filter would be to get some pex and some shark bytes... When the Softener Service comes out and rechecks my water as well as my install. We'll see what he has to say.
From what I see posted here either a brass brine valve repair and/or a clogged jet should be reasonable. I would hope the resin is still good but time will tell with that.

Having seen my plain jane setup any suggestions would be appreciated too. Be it looks like it will be pretty straight forward to fix.
I really did not want to have to buy a WHOLE new unit unless that really is the best way to go. As I was reading on different threads the Vortech is not all its cracked up to be...

@Gary thanks for your input experience beats it looks new and shiny anytime!
@Dittohead your info from experience fills in the messing Gaps on web pages!
 

KimbaWLion

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Well today is the day the Softener service comes out to look at it. HOPEFULLY it will not be that bad. IF so I'll end up getting something else... I can get whole new 40K unit with a Fleck 7000 SXT valve etc. for $519 delivered.
Ionics uses a "custom" 2510 and very few parts are interchangeable, Hell the Tank has is own custom thread so I can't even switch valves out! I SOOO wish I knew a lot more at the time, guess you live and HOPEFULLY learn... After I get my results I post here and see what the very nice as well as helpful people here think of the choices he is going to give me...
 
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KimbaWLion

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The guy JUST left first my water results:
4ppm Nitrate, 107ppm/6.25 grains of hardness, 330 TDS, .11 Chlorine, 7.3 Ph, 83ppm Alkalinity, 0 Iron, 0 Copper, <10 CO2

He also took at look at things to see what was what since all it takes is a 5/16 nut driver to take the cover and gasket off and look at the injector and filter screen.
He cleaned those, which did look pretty clean and while all the pieces were out, blew some water through the system to make sure any dirt was knocked out.
Everything was put back and re-tightened. He then look at my float assembly which seems to be stuck, salt may have gotten under it and bridged it stuck (he told me to check and clear it sometime after the regeneration), he also checked out the brine tube connection etc. We started a regeneration to see if it now worked. He checked the suction of the brine tube, which it NOW has, and the water in my brine tank is now draining and doing a proper regeneration.

Since the Resin is 14 year old he feels it may be time to redo it, given the chlorine has been running through it all this time. He left me a soap hardness test to check it later. Ionics has a lifetime guarantee on their resin so it would be covered since he is a real Ionics servicer. They just have to sample it and send it in to prove its ionics resin. He commented that maybe putting in a carbon filter to remove the chlorine so I would not have to worry about the resin again for the foreseeable future.

All in all I would say I got off REALLY easy. The charge to check my water was free BUT since he DID spend a BIT of time here checking out my system and actually taking some things a part and spending close to 1.5 hours here. I wrote out a check for $100 dollars to the company and thanked him for all his time in helping me. He is going to call Ionics up and take what steps need to be taken to rebed my tank on them etc. I'll keep everybody posted as this proceeds...
 
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Master Plumber Mark

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so how much is the re-bedding gonna cost you??

would it not be wiser just to get yourself a new unit after 14 years of service??? Everything looks pretty worn out to
me just from just looking at the pics you posted..

The Clack 48,000 grain unit would be a better choice over throwing more money into this ionics system...


you got off real cheap for 100 bucks... it might be time just to retire that unit before you have to sink some real
money into that control
 

KimbaWLion

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Well I am going to call them on Friday about rebedding cost etc. I am pretty sure that IF the resin is replaced by warranty it should be re-bedded at Ionics expense, I'll have answer Friday I HOPE...
I cleaned up all the salt off the Brine tank, broke up a small salt bridge and now the float is moving properly, the water level is where it belongs now. I regenerated it, twice now to see if the system works. ( And yes I know I need to get more salt the 2 regens polished off what I had left as you can see!) He gave me a very basic hardness test kit. You fill the vile 1/2 way add a drop of the test solution, shake and if you get bubbles your water is soft. I get some bubbles where at the the beginning I had ZERO. I cleaned up what little dirt was on the stainless steel tank and it looks like BRAND new, Ionics may not be a standard thread and size but that tank looks really new shiny now.

Since regeneration it seems I have developed a small but consistent leak from the brine tube attached at the tank, it was not leaking the other day so I guess after 2 regens, spaced a few hours a part I now have one.
I should be able to do something about that myself. I'll check into it later here or somebody will chime in when I check back later. :)

The Company itself has been around since 1958. They come out and test your water for free and since I was an established customer they gave me no grief at all, PLUS to get a standard service call I would have had to wait for OVER week, they are JUST that busy at the moment. Their water tester is also an installer and he knows the Ionics people personally so he knows who to call. I KNOW how lucky I am for $100, they were NOT even going to charge me, I OFFERED that for all the time he spent here. They are a class act and I trust them to play it straight with me. The tester he uses was some sort of spectrum color reader, he says it does 100s of things as needed actually. He dropped the tablets in a square vial and loaded them up and pressed a button to get the hardness etc.

He also mentioned at one time they USE to carry an thread adapter for Ionics that let them change the 2 1/4" 16 thread per inch to be able to fit a standard head of 2 1/2" 8 threads per inch, never heard or saw one of those before but IF true I would just get a new valve altogether. Time will tell depending on what Ionics/Purionics wants to do. When I know what my choices are I will post them here and get advice as everybody here has been so good to me considering all my ignorance and how much money this has cost me long term since I went from a Novatek/US Filter to the Ionics etc. The only new thing he DID suggest was carbon filter to remove the chlorine. They make canister household sized ones, Ones that use a Fleck 5600 valve and backwash and they have NO backwashing up flow ones. Any info this would be appreciated so I can see what this is going to cost me and I want to do the RIGHT thing, THIS time...
Here are some pics after the clean up.

Brine connection slight leak.jpgCleaned up tank.jpgNormal Brine level.jpg
 
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Lifespeed

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Cool avatar. I used to watch Kimba the White Lion when I was 5. Removing chlorine is nice, best way to do it is with a proper backwashed carbon tank. I like the valves with larger internal ports like Fleck 7000 or Clack WS1. Too bad that nice stainless tank has proprietary threads. But a new fiberglass tank is not a huge expense, valve and resin are the majority of the cost anyway.
 

ditttohead

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The composite tanks last as long as the stianless steel, if not longer in many applications. Stainless tanks have wleded seems, a common failure point, as well as the domes under the tank have a tendancy to fail in certain conditions. Both tanks should last 20+ years if treated properly.

A backwashing GAC tank is perfect for taking out chlorine. Simple and cheap.

Your valve is a great one except for the proprietary nature. A non proprietary valve can be rebuilt by any company and you can shop around for price.

Even a tiny leak in the brine line will cause the system to have problems, fix it asap. The brine valve in the system is a common wear item. When they atrat to go, they wil lwork intermittently as the spring mechanism start to jam occassionally. better to just replace it every 5-10 years.
 

KimbaWLion

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@lifespeed Anime is kind of my thing, yeah everybody has something and I am toys R us kid so there you have it. I actually knew the late Billie Lou Watts the voice of Kimba and Astroboy
I still go to anime cons and I look REALLY young for my age so I blend in pretty good for now... :)

@ditttohead I am calling the Company back on Friday. I have a couple of ways to go. A lot of it depends on Ionics. Should they send me the resin under warranty and pay to re-bed I will ask to re-bed a new tank
and just pay for a new valve, they are not fond of the 7000sxt and prefer the 5600SXT. I have one shower with multi-heads my bathroom DOES have a whirlpool tub so I am pretty sure the 7000sxt is
a better choice. I also want to add a carbon tank so price is going to the be the over ruling factor in everything. The one GOOD thing is I have a pressure reducer valve and can raise it if need for any
pressure drops since my home pressure is around 110psi and wrecked my first RO system and flooded my basement because I had no idea... They seem willing to work with me so we'll see. Out of
curiosity how much Carbon would I need 1cu. ft? 1.5? 2? You don't like Vortech tanks I think I read somewhere. I am looking at my current water bill and this month I averaged 120 Gals a day and I peak
out at 150 3 months out of the year when my daughter is home...

Once again thanks for all the help everyone here has provided so far. I have learned a ton I WISH I knew before 1997 when I installed my first softener and wish I knew even more when I got the Ionics back in 2000...
 
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ditttohead

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The 7000 is a great valve. One of the best available. Check out my link below to see how easy they are to rebuild. Some companies don't like them for several reasons. Primarily, they take an extra five minutes of training over the 5600SXT to become a real pro at them. Both valves are fine, but in my opinion, and considering I sell thousands of each a year, the 7000SXT is much better. It is not better for companies that have new employees they have to train every week because they hire incompetent people who have no mechanical aptitude. Most of the commercial companies have switched to the 7000, but these are companies with real service techs who can handle a valve that has a few less screws and require a tiny bit of experience. Like the Clack valve, the 7000 is not based on a 40 year old design, so some companies make it out to be a difficult valve. Change is very hard for some people.
 

KimbaWLion

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Well I was going to push for the 7000SXT anyway it IS newer and I would get a better flow rate. I know they can figure it out, but how much GAC do I need?
I tried googling the sizing and did not find what I was looking for. The ones you see for sale give you a choice starting at .5CF on up.
I was also interested in Vortech tank because of the lower amount of water in the backwash but I read some where you saw issues in the field.
Either way I have to wait till Friday to call them and see what's going on. Then I can make my choices...
 

ditttohead

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Less water during backwash? LOL, great marketing. I have seen a couple of failed lower plates which fills the house up with media. I have also seen a few dislodged distributor tubes, not a good thing. The vortech is also not available with the larger 32 mm manifold. The premise behind the vortech is great, and the lower shipping cost is nice since it does not use a gravel underbed. All that being said, a standard gravel underbed is just fine.

Save your money, go with a regular tank with a gravel underbedding.

For a regular house, I recommend no less than 1.5 Cu. ft. of GAC. A standard 10x54 tank will be just fine and it should cost the same as a smaller Vortech tank.
 

Gary Slusser

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Tank adapters for 2.5" x 16tpi SS tanks to industry standard 2.5" x 8tpi control valves.
http://www.apwinc.com/tankadapters-ss.html

ditto, do you sell to the end user/retail consumer?

Also, how about telling us what the importance of the higher flow rate of a 7000 control valve is to the overall flow rate of a 1.5 or 2 cuft water softener.
 

ditttohead

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Too old of a discussion, it has been gone through too many times on this forum, please use the search function if you need to know that information. :)
 

KimbaWLion

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WOW I googled ALL over for a link like that!!!! Just shows what a little experience can do! The people I am using to service my set up told me that they use them all the time. He may even have them in stock, though he said they really haven't used them much lately because they have little need now, but use to all the time with success. The person sent to my house was looking into getting me one vs a rebuilt since my valve is just about 14 years old. The manufacturer date on the valve is stamped 3/00. We talked about rebuilding vs. a new valve install because on the Ionics head you can see they are vertical instead of the standard horizontal. He said some scrap pieces of pex and some
shark bytes would correct that really fast and make the GAC tank install much easier too, given the placement of the my water inlet... He knows money is really tight and he wants to fix me up, add the GAC tank and make
everything work well for the least amount of money. If you read above about their service call you can see they are good people. (the same family since 1958 usually means good things!)

As for the valve, sizing, and flow etc. As I stated above, my one shower has a lot going on depending on what gets turned on. I have a Grohe shower arm 2.5 gpm, A Grohe handheld at 2.5 gpm, a Grohe "sun flower" over head, AND I have 3 Grohe shower sprays. I am not saying they are all turned on at the same time but even with 2-3 are on that is some major flow... My master bath has a Jacuzzi whirlpool tub and we increased the inlet from 1/2" to a 3/4" valve.
The inlet from the water meter is 3/4" and he told me bypass is a 3/4"one which would figure.

I SHOULD have an answer from Ionics on what they will vs. will NOT do tomorrow. He told me IF possible to keep total cost down, which more probable now with that link, is keep the tank, re-bed it at Ionics expense, get a new valve with the adapter or rebuild mine and add the GAC.
He is hoping Ionics will re-bed at their expense and I would pay for the new valve or a rebuild. He already told me my 2510 was a decent work horse valve and I may not really gain anything by switching either.

The question is, even though the 7000 SXT IS newer a probably a better design, is optical etc. Do actually get performance gain? Do I get that much better flow that makes a difference, etc. etc.

I am a civil engineer, want to know about bridges, roads and beams I AM your guy! I came here because I know a lot about a little and that can make me dangerous! I like having all my information BEFORE I call tomorrow and the people on this forum really have helped a lot. I know a LOT more than I use to, and that in itself can cause problems as it gives me too much information. Rebuild vs a new valve? I am already going to add more Resin than it originally came with so I can get more grains of handling than it had before and Ionics is stingy with it as it can handle more, but can't be a whole more since the highest regen is at gallons as set by the valve is 2100 gals, that alone may a reason to change it!

@Gary Slusser and ditttohead The both of you have provided me valuable information that already has me thinking, your continued guidance is TRULY appreciated!
 

ditttohead

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A 1.5 or 2 Cu Ft tank will have a very slight flow advantage with the 7000 over the 2510 or 5600SXT, but this is slight, and you would probably never notice it. The optical positioning is simple and eliminates the old style micro-switches that are common on older valve designs. The mechanical micro-switches that Fleck use are basically bullet-proof, so longevity of either will be exceptional. You really cant go wrong with either the 2510SXT or the 7000SXT. I am not much of a fan of the 5600SXT anymore, it is far better than most, but it does not compare to the 2510 or 7000 series.

The adapter works fine, but breakage has been a problem in the past. It is machined from BarStock PVC, as opposed to a molded glass filled Noryl or similar high tech plastic. I am sure someone will chime in telling me they sold thousands and they have never ever broke... sigh. The breakage issue was not overly common, but it was not unheard of either. Considering the cost, a new tank is probably cheaper and it eliminates the possibility of having that part break.
 

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As for the valve, sizing, and flow etc. As I stated above, my one shower has a lot going on depending on what gets turned on. I have a Grohe shower arm 2.5 gpm, A Grohe handheld at 2.5 gpm, a Grohe "sun flower" over head, AND I have 3 Grohe shower sprays. I am not saying they are all turned on at the same time but even with 2-3 are on that is some major flow... My master bath has a Jacuzzi whirlpool tub and we increased the inlet from 1/2" to a 3/4" valve.
The inlet from the water meter is 3/4" and he told me bypass is a 3/4"one which would figure.

You have 3/4" main line to the softener? That is quite a lot of flow fed by a 3/4" pipe. Given the modest pipe size, the need for the 7000SXT increased flow is less compelling for the softener application. However, there is no down side at all to the larger valve and it has an excellent reputation. With respect to the GAC application the smaller 5600 is limited to 1.5 cu ft of carbon it can backwash due to flow restrictions. So I would definitely get a 7000SXT for the GAC tank (even if you do only use a 1.5 cu ft tank) because it is an excellent valve and doesn't limit you if you decide to change things down the road. You might even consider the small additional expense of getting the metered version of the 7000SXT (typically not used for GAC applications) because of added flexibility of use if you ever have to reconfigure your treatment setup.

It does sound like the least expensive approach to the softener might be to rebuild the proprietary 2510 if you get a free re-bed and don't mind dealing with the maintenance annoyances that come with proprietary. Just keep a close eye on the softener cost. If it starts to approach $400 - $500 you can buy a whole new softener for a couple hundred more.
 

KimbaWLion

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You have 3/4" main line to the softener? That is quite a lot of flow fed by a 3/4" pipe. Given the modest pipe size, the need for the 7000SXT increased flow is less compelling for the softener application. However, there is no down side at all to the larger valve and it has an excellent reputation. With respect to the GAC application the smaller 5600 is limited to 1.5 cu ft of carbon it can backwash due to flow restrictions. So I would definitely get a 7000SXT for the GAC tank (even if you do only use a 1.5 cu ft tank) because it is an excellent valve and doesn't limit you if you decide to change things down the road. You might even consider the small additional expense of getting the metered version of the 7000SXT (typically not used for GAC applications) because of added flexibility of use if you ever have to reconfigure your treatment setup.

It does sound like the least expensive approach to the softener might be to rebuild the proprietary 2510 if you get a free re-bed and don't mind dealing with the maintenance annoyances that come with proprietary. Just keep a close eye on the softener cost. If it starts to approach $400 - $500 you can buy a whole new softener for a couple hundred more.

I SO hear you there about cost! One thing to keep in mind is these people are REAL Ionics "servicers". The person selling the units to others let alone me was VERY shady and disappeared leaving a lot of people with no servicing. This outfit was getting TONS of service calls! One the owners, actually the guy who came out to my house, met the Official Ionics people at a trade show, they had a chat and Ionics agree to let them be official without selling the units as their name was getting TRASHED in my area because of the bad distributor. Also remember I can turn up my pressure to account for any pressure drops. I always thought I had a 1" feed but what did I know...

They are also the ones that mentioned the adapter ring first with a new valve. He said the Ionics SS tanks are solidly built and he has never seen ANY fail. (mine is almost 14 years old and looks like the day they installed it!) He said they had used them for years and never had an issue. It all comes down to what Ionics will do for me! Should they cover the re-bed 100%, he told me I should just rebuild the 2510, he really likes that valve and for my particular needs, and it IS the cheapest way to go. Should I spend a little more and replace the valve the re-install is easy with some pex and shark bytes. He suggested the carbon tank since removing the chlorine enhances the life of the resin let along other pluses! I already showed him Online pricing so he knows I know ahead and how to price me. I have real world money concerns as he saw in the house because my wife is VERY ill and my medical bills even with decent insurance are quite high! He promised me they would do the best for me that they could and you know how you get a good feeling from people you meet sometimes, I have that feeling...
As I said, he was not even going to charge me for cleaning out my injector and screen, as well as some other things. It is why I GAVE him a check for $100, it was the least I could do and it shows my good will and appreciation.

I hope I get SOME good news from them tomorrow! Here's HOPING! :)
 

ditttohead

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3/4" copper pipe is rated for approximately 11 gpm, but it can flow over 20 GPM. The pipes will usually sing to you if you push them that hard.

Sounds like your guy is doing very good for you. The Ionics valve is very good, the only problem with it is the proprietary nature of it.

Ionics has been very careful to spec in only the highest quality components, including their stainless tanks. They are one of the few that we have seen almost no failures on. They do not go for the lowest bidder on their equipment, and the longevity of their systems shows.

Even if Ionics doesnt do the resin, he can change the resin for you, it should be a fairly reasonable price to put in standard resin. You do not need the proprietary resin or medias, just standard resin will do just fine.

Keep us updated!
 

KimbaWLion

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Here is a story to go with Ionics and the bedding...

Ionics offers a LIFETIME warranty on their resin (at leas when I bought mine), it has some super fancy name and has a lot of buzz words around it, bet most experienced people here know the nickel words around it etc.
In order to PROVE it's THEIR resin they actually make the servicer take a sample and SEND it to them to prove it!

I mean I have no idea about what tests they use to prove it to make sure its their's but I was told they have them and DO know when its theirs. Should it test to be their resin
there is no problem. What my servicer is worried about is this dealer who I bought it from, was SOOO bad he was taking out the Ionics resin and using a cheaper grade sometimes. He has ALREADY SEEN THIS! He has even seen them NOT put in the gravel base too... I would have to call and complain and they usually give in since how could it be MY fault in the first place.

What will happen either way is this. We worked this out so far to save me the most money. He is going to come and just pick up the tank while its on by pass, take it to his shop/store, get the sample and work on at a slower pace since it going to take at least a week or so to verify the resin. While he is waiting for the results he is going to look at the valve and make sure its worth fixing vs. a new one as he does have all the proprietary Ionics parts to fully rebuilt it. He told me sometimes long term Chlorine exposure sometimes erodes parts of the valve making it cheaper to replace vs. rebuild properly to spec. So that remains to be seen. As an engineer I LIKE new and shiny but if it gains me NOTHING then a rebuilt one for less works for me too.

OH! 2 last questions:
1. I have seen 20" inline GAC whole house filters. They say that the filters are good for up to 44,000 Gallons and they even include an Inlet and Outlet Pressure gauge to tell you when you have to change the filters. I guess the back washing sort STILL is better?

2. I was reading on water on softenrparts.com that on tanks LESS than 12 inches in diameter they talk about the NOT putting in gravel etc. as it can cause movement issues with the distributer pipe. True/Not true? Makes no difference?

Once again thanks for all the help its is TRULY appreciated, I SO wish I knew all this before...
 
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