Installing a 3 gallon heater ca?----

Discussion in 'Water Heater Forum, Tanks' started by bsa_bob, Jul 3, 2011.

  1. bsa_bob

    bsa_bob DIY Member

    Messages:
    56
    Location:
    britton mich
    Can i just install a heater this size just below my k sink in the basement? And pipe it in series, with my hot side of the faucet above. I"m looking to save running off so much water[wasteing well water]and get hot water quicker for her to wipe off the kitchen table

    This will refill the 3 gallon tank and make it ready for the next use........although----------will i be running the electric too much ?-and to often. Any help greatly appreciated ----btw --- where do i pickup this heater and which is the best for the money??-------- thank you again bob s -
    Ps i forgot to say my house is long and the main heater is on the opposite end of the faucet.I'll be tapping into the main hot water supplyline. like i say "in series"
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2011
  2. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

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    Why not just install Watts/Grundfos Comfort recirc and keep the space under the sink? The recirc can also give you instant warm water at other taps in the house. A 3 gallon heater wil give you 3 gallons of hot water followed by cold water.
  3. bsa_bob

    bsa_bob DIY Member

    Messages:
    56
    Location:
    britton mich
    MAN!! I 'm forgetting this stuff fast. Thank you for the reply.So you are saying to just recirculate the hot --at the main heater its self.?????????I had it in my head the hot water would be coming thru the, 3 gallon heater ,hot.But it won't, it will have to release all the stored cold water; before i get hot water, unless i never use much water. at the hot faucet.Her and i are senior citizens.I have to find one of these grunfos set-ups??
  4. cacher_chick

    cacher_chick Test, Don't Guess!

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    There are several different hot water recirculation systems, each with their own advantages and disadvantages.

    The best systems use a recirculation pump at the water heater and have a dedicated recirculation pipe running from the pump to the furthest fixture from the heater.
  5. bsa_bob

    bsa_bob DIY Member

    Messages:
    56
    Location:
    britton mich
    Dedicated line?? This is a line that runs from the recic pump, to the faucet and back..one line out of the pump,and one line back to pump, with the faucet in the middle.is this right???????
  6. Gary Swart

    Gary Swart In the Trades

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    A recirculating line runs from the furthest hot water fixture back to the water heater. The pump is in the recirculating line close to the heater and only involves the recirculating line. There are several brands of systems available, all work pretty much the same. I use a Laing and it has performed well for several years. They come with or without timers.
  7. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

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    Yes, but in many cases it is difficult, if not impossible, to retrofit a dedicated return line. A retro circulation system, such as the Grundfos, will give fast, NOT immediate, hot water to EVERY faucet between the heater and the "crossover" valve. Your 2 gallon heater under the sink WILL give immediate hot water, up to 2 gallons, but do NOTHING for the intermediate faucets. And, that little heater WILL have a T&P valve which will require that its discharge pipe be run out through the exterior of the house.
  8. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

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    Location:
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    A retrofit recirc that uses the existing cold line for the return is not for everyone. If you drink cold water straight from the tap, then forget it, as the cold side becomes warm.

    HJ is right that a retrofit recirc that uses the existing cold line for the return won't give you instant hot. I was careful not to make that claim and rather used the term instant warm. In many cases people don't really need instant hot and just want instant warm. Also many people these days get their drinking water from the door of the fridge or via a RO spigot.
  9. DonL

    DonL Banned

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    Sounds like a lot of expense and trouble, Just to clean the kitchen table.

    Why not use a tea kettle to heat the water ?

    Old School...
  10. LLigetfa

    LLigetfa DIYer, not in the trades

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    Location:
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    There exist also, on-demand retrofit recirc systems without dedicated return. You push a button a minute or so before you draw the water. That way you don't always have tepid water in the cold line.
  11. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

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    Most any recirc system can be setup to only run on demand. The simplest one to install IF you have power underneath the sink is the RedyTemp unit. Takes all of around 10-minutes and you'd probably only need a pair of pliers if the hoses are tight to the faucet. I have one of these in my bathroom. It has its advantages and disadvantages. There's often a receptacle under the sink for things like the garbage disposal, and you may have an unswitched space free, so this would be simple. Rarely is there an outlet under a vanity. I pulled a new lead off the bathroom's one and cut a new one in there for mine, but if you can't do this yourself, it's often less to have it done at the WH, where there is likely already power, and, it allows for multiple crossovers, if desired, to ensure the whole house gets the instant water. In my situation, the vanity it is in the furthest thing from the WH, so the whole house gets the advantage of the circulation. Mine's about 8-years old and still working fine. I have it on a timer so it only runs when needed during the time I'm generally up.
  12. bsa_bob

    bsa_bob DIY Member

    Messages:
    56
    Location:
    britton mich
    That was just an example i would think it was so when i typed it.theres many other times she needs this type of thing so i fix it up for her.
  13. bsa_bob

    bsa_bob DIY Member

    Messages:
    56
    Location:
    britton mich
    This redi-temp also sounds like it may be what is needed in my long run. thank you jad nashua
  14. bsa_bob

    bsa_bob DIY Member

    Messages:
    56
    Location:
    britton mich


    I just want good warm water in the kitchen within a couple of minutes, the warmth of the water isn't bothering me as much as. --the large amount of water going down the drain. i have to stop this.
  15. cacher_chick

    cacher_chick Test, Don't Guess!

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    You may be thinking about this in the wrong way. Running well water down the drain for a couple of minutes is not really wasting it at all. It's no different than watering your garden or lawn, in that eventually most of the water ends up back in the ground and back to the water table.

    If your plumbing is accessable in the basement or crawlspace, installing a dedicated recirc pipe should not be a problem. Install a pump that uses a timer and thermostatic controls to prevent it from running when it is not needed, and you will be golden.
  16. Dana

    Dana In the trades

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    Water that you've paid to pump from a deep well is complete waste if you're dumping it in your septic leach field to replenish the shallower water table. It's diluting the septic system too, lowering it's effectiveness. Only if it's being directed to a greywater system used for toilet flushing or garden watering would any value be retained.

    The standby losses of an electric under-sink tank may be lower (often MUCH lower) than the heat abandoned in the plumbing by a recirculation approach. It depends a lot on the total volume and individual draw volumes at that tap. Either way you do it, insulating as much of the hot water distribution plumbing as is reasonably possible with 5/8"-wall pipe insulation is cost effective in most places. The plumbing insulation primer lives here.

    [​IMG]

    If you're filling 50' of 3/4" plumbing (~1.25 gallons) with 130F water to get a quarter cup for wetting a sponge the recirculation solution is an energy-disaster, a HUGE step in the wrong direction.
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2011
  17. jadnashua

    jadnashua Retired Defense Industry Engineer xxx

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    If you set it to only run when needed and you can afford to wait for the pump to get the hot there, it will be cheap. It's still not all that horrible if you pipes are insulated, depending on where they run (conditioned space, verses unconditioned).
  18. hj

    hj Moderator & Master Plumber Staff Member

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    The problem with the "redi temp" units at the sink is that the "thermo valve" is IN the pump and when it goes bad, as it will eventually, you may have to replace the entire unit. The Grunfos "comfort" system has the pump at the water heater, and easily replaceable control units under the sink. In addition, if your home does NOT have a linear system where a single valve takes care of ALL the sinks, you can install additional ones at the other "remote" sinks, which you cannot do with the pump under the sink.
  19. Dana

    Dana In the trades

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    For a tap that's primarily used for short or very-short draws, a recirculator is a more complicated and less energy efficient solution than a point-of-use mini-tank in series with the outflow of the main water heater. If the distribution from the main heater is so long that you'd even contemplate a recirc, the volume of hot water abandoned in the distribution line exceeds the draw volume by an order of magnitude. With a mini-tank the abandoned volume equals only the draw volume, not 10x the draw volume, but there is a standby loss introduced. With insulated input & output plumbing on the mini-tank the standby losses are extremely low.

    Of course it's difficult to model the performance in actual use without all of the relevant information. We should set up data loggers and track draw volume, frequency & temperature of the draws from that tap for a month or so, THEN decide which approach makes more sense based on real info rather than a WAG! :)
  20. Gary Swart

    Gary Swart In the Trades

    Messages:
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    Location:
    Yakima WA
    In my opinion, if you can install a dedicated return line, it's a no-brained. I realize that access is not always easy and might involve more demo and repair work that you would want to do. A retro fit device would be the simplest to use, but as others have noted, these have their disadvantages. As far as operating costs are concerned, I run my Laing pump 24/7 and have done so for about 8 years. I'm sure there is a cost for that, but my power bill is not excessive. It would be easy to put a timer on it, and of course there are pumps with a timer built in. I just figure what little added cost there is, is worth it to have instant hot anytime I want it, and yes, sometimes I do want hot water a 2 or 3 AM.
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