Increasing gas line size to extend length

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Mud

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Greetings, everyone.

I want to add a gas sub meter for our cottage. The line is nearly maxed out on length for the size and appliances it feeds. Installing the sub meter will require adding about 15-20 ft of pipe, plus at least two elbows somewhere in the middle of that line.

Can I simply increase the size of the gas pipe for the additional pipe I'm adding in the middle to stay within the carrying capacity of the entire line?

Here's a schematic of what I want to do. Existing pipe is 3/4", proposed additional pipe would be 1".

[meter]---------80ft 3/4"---------elbow----10ft 1"----[sub meter]----10ft 1"----elbow-----20ft 3/4"-----[cottage]

I assume I can install the meter using unions since it will be outside. Would it be better to use right/left couplings instead?


Also, if anyone has some recommendations on what kind of meter and where to get it, that would be great. There's an outfit in Auburn, WA that has meters for $160, but I don't know if something can be had for less. I was surprised to find that the old style electric meters can be purchased for $15.

Thank you.
 

hj

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Because the gas line, I assume it is natural gas, is at a very low pressure to start with, it is somewhat resilient as to length, but if you are adding more appliances, then the 3/4" will be too small as far as capacity is concerned.
 

Mud

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Thanks, hj.

I was working from a pipe sizing table & chart on this page:
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/natural-gas-pipe-sizing-d_826.html

My existing 3/4" pipe is about 100 ft long, which the chart says will feed about 85,000 BTU/h. The needs actually exceed that now if you figure someone could run every burner on the range at full blast, plus the oven, water heater, and furnace. It passed inspection when it was built though.

My fear is that adding another 20 ft of pipe plus elbows and meter could cause a problem when everything is in use. But I gather you're saying the length shouldn't be a problem and I can just go ahead and add the pipe in 3/4"?

Do you know if there are any code compliance issues if I were to add 1" pipe for the meter instead of 3/4"? I think the meter uses 1" fittings anyway.
 
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Mud

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Another question:

The added lines going to and from the meter will be hoizontal. The meters I've seen all have ports in the tops, which would likely mean the meter will sit below the level of the pipes. Is there any requirement that I install some kind of drip tap before the meter?

Here's a meter typical of the ones I can choose from:
bkg4.jpg
 

Kevink1955

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Never seen a drip before a utility meter so I guess you do not need 1. Just an FYI, the meter in the photo (and all others I have seen) requires an offset combo nipple/gasketed union to connect to the top mounted fittings. You cannot just thread a pipe fitting to the meter as the threads are not pipe thread.
 

Gary Swart

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Gas work really should be left to a professional. We Diyers can screw up on water pipes and drains and just make a mess, but screw up on gas people can die. I do not know how strict California is on gas line work, but if some of the other CA code requirements are any measure, you would be well advised to consider the examining the codes.
 

Tom Sawyer

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I just got back from 4 days of hashing over the new gas code laws and we have pretty much come to the conclusion that something needs to be done to prevent anyone, including homeowners without a gas license from touching gas piping at all. The nation wide insurance statistics on gas accidents and injuries that are a result of home owners and unlicensed contractors messing about are appalling. Please call someone with a license and the experience, to size and install your piping. You will sleep better. So will your family.
 

Jimbo

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Under what authority are you installing a submeter? Such an issue is very tightly regulated by the California PUC. First off, your meter will have to be calibrated by the county weights and measures. Then, if you are planning on billing a tenant for usage, then you must have an independent 3rd party read the meter and calculate a proper bill. You can't just say..."x many cubic feet..you owe half".
We are happy to provide you the information about your question....but I do hope you realize that there is NO QUESTION that this installation requires a permit and inspection.
 

Mud

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IF the 100' of 3/4 is "overloaded" now, it will be even more so, REGARDLESS of what size pipe you use for the extension.

Yes, clearly. The object is to make the extension's impact as negligible as possible. Without disassembling the licensed, permitted, and inspected work that was done before, I cannot correct that problem.
 

Mud

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I just got back from 4 days of hashing over the new gas code laws and we have pretty much come to the conclusion that something needs to be done to prevent anyone, including homeowners without a gas license from touching gas piping at all. The nation wide insurance statistics on gas accidents and injuries that are a result of home owners and unlicensed contractors messing about are appalling. Please call someone with a license and the experience, to size and install your piping. You will sleep better. So will your family.

Indeed I would not sleep better.

It is my sincere hope that in those 4 days, you also addressed the issue of shoddy work and pathetic inspections performed by licensed professionals.

Why am I crawling around in my attic to reroute the main vent horizontal so it won't fill with water? Why do I need to reinstall the grounding bus on my service panel because the licensed, experienced professional whose work was inspected decided it was a good idea to cut 30% of the ground strands so it would fit in an undersized bus bar? Why could I unscrew the inspected gas piping with barely any effort at all? Why are the PT ledgers that hold the house up bolted in the upper third only without corrosion resistant bolts? I've got a million more where those came from.

Thanks, but on the issues of design, I use some of my own training as well as search for information on the codes and their interpretation from professionals who can make compelling cases. When it comes to the actual workmanship, I prefer not to let other people work on important things that they don't own and don't have to live with. Right now, I'm gathering information. And even if I do end up hiring someone, I need to know how to evaluate his plan and his work.

I do want to be careful not to paint all tradesmen and inspectors with the same brush here. There are obviously many conscientious people who really do seek to produce high quality work. Sadly, I don't often see their products in residential construction.
 
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Mud

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Under what authority are you installing a submeter? Such an issue is very tightly regulated by the California PUC. First off, your meter will have to be calibrated by the county weights and measures. Then, if you are planning on billing a tenant for usage, then you must have an independent 3rd party read the meter and calculate a proper bill. You can't just say..."x many cubic feet..you owe half".
We are happy to provide you the information about your question....but I do hope you realize that there is NO QUESTION that this installation requires a permit and inspection.

Ok, now this is interesting. I have read that there are significant regulations with regard to reselling gas and electricity. I don't know how the concepts of reselling and sharing are defined in the statutes. Clearly, I have yet to complete that research.

The idea is to simply install the meter to monitor how much gas is being used. It is my aim to come to a legal solution for utilities if we do decide to rent the cottage in the future. If direct metering isn't a final solution, metering for sake of estimating future included utility charges will be very helpful.
 

hj

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quote; Why could I unscrew the inspected gas piping with barely any effort at all?

Bcause YOU COULD NOT. If the pipe was inspected, it had to be TESTED and a "loose" pipe would NOT have passed inspection. I think you are using hyperbole to make a point.
 

Jimbo

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Ok, now this is interesting. I have read that there are significant regulations with regard to reselling gas and electricity. I don't know how the concepts of reselling and sharing are defined in the statutes. Clearly, I have yet to complete that research.

The idea is to simply install the meter to monitor how much gas is being used. It is my aim to come to a legal solution for utilities if we do decide to rent the cottage in the future. If direct metering isn't a final solution, metering for sake of estimating future included utility charges will be very helpful.


There is probably no rule about installing a sub-meter just for your own informational use...( May I emphasize again the need for permit and inspection. ) I have quite a bit of experience regarding the submeter issue in CA. Over in Pacific Beach and La LaJolla, a lot of apartments dating from around 1950 had over the years bootlegged in meters for elec. and sometimes gas and water. The landlord was just winging the bills. But in the '90s, the city clamped down on that. First, they had to pull all the meters and get updated cal. tags on them. Then they had to outsource the reading/billing function. And of course you pay for all that. Recentlly, condos such as where I live have investigated submetering of water, since the rates have spiked. We did not do it, but a friend of mine..his condo did do it. It costs them about $5 per unit bimonthly, to have the meters read and bills sent out.

Now, in your situation, it may still be a good idea to put that meter in and use it over time to establish the approximate usage in that cottage, and then simply build that money into the monthly rent. You could also install a HUD thermostat which limits the heat to some maximum temp.

So will remind you again that if gas work is not permitted, and a fire OF ANY ORIGIN ensues, you will have an insurance battle on your hands, and any future sale of the property will be in jeopardy.


We are trying to remain friendly on this issue. The guys will continue to answer your questions. But please understand why our hackles go up a little when gas is involved!
 

Jastori

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quote; Why could I unscrew the inspected gas piping with barely any effort at all?

Bcause YOU COULD NOT. If the pipe was inspected, it had to be TESTED and a "loose" pipe would NOT have passed inspection. I think you are using hyperbole to make a point.

In our location, the work of the "licensed professionals" is almost never tested by the *city inspector*. The city inspector doesn't actually know the codes, and *assumes* that the *licensed professional* did the job correctly. While there may be some *licensed professionals* in our town that do a job correctly, there are many *licensed hacks* who make a mess but pass inspection nonetheless.
 

Tom Sawyer

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If I had a nickle for every time a home owner has made a similar post I would be a very rich man indeed. When I was an inspector I saw very very little "shoddy" work done by licensed professionals. 90% of the shoddy work was and is done by home owners, handymen and unlicensed general contractors which was probably the case in your house. Licensed professionals know that ultimately they will be held responsible and liable for any and all property damage or personal injuries that occur due to "shoddy" workmanship and we all care deeply not only about the public safety but for our licenses as well because without them we can not make a living. I get real tired of reading posts like that because I know that 99% of them are a load of crap and generally posted by someone trying to justify what they are doing. If you really do have those "shoddy" problems with your piping and such then you should hire a licensed, insured professional to straighten the mess out.
 

Bluebinky

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Must be a lot different in the great white north.

Most of the "professionals" around here don't speak English, or have a driver's license, insurance, etc... If you can find a true professional, he will be in such a rush that it wouldn't make much difference anyway. Gas may be different, though...

Once a transformer blew up shooting hot oil all over the street. The PG&E buy said "Since there are 22 meters on that transformer, we are going to upgrade from a 15 kW to a 25 kW. That aught to handle it."

I just replaced all the gas piping in my house (after lots and lots of study). I am 100% confident that it wouldn't be any better no matter who had done it. The "inspection" consisted of him pushing on the schrader valve and when the test gauge dropped he was happy. He never even looked in the crawlspace.


BTW I do appreciate all the pros on this forum for taking the time to educate and help us DIYers (not sure what drives you to do so). I've learned a lot reading the helpful replies during the last few months. You guys rock. If there is ever a time that I need work done that I can't or don't want to do myself, I wouldn't bat an eye to pay any one of you full price for your services.
 
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Jimbo

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It is NOT the job of an inspector to QA the workmanship. Bottom line is it either passes a pressure test or it doesn't. He will try to find obvious code violations, but will NOT have the opportunity to inspect every joint visually. It would be unusual for an inspector to fail a job on quality of craftmanship unless there it was a SERIOUS mess. There aren't enough inspectors, you couldn't afford it if they did inspect like that, it would get over into an area that is WAY too subjective. A first year apprentice may do a pipe job that does not look as pretty as a 20 year journeyman would put together...but if the joints are sound, that is what counts. The construction industry perforce accepts a certain variability in workmanship. We could argue about this all day!
 

DonL

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It is NOT the job of an inspector to QA the workmanship. Bottom line is it either passes a pressure test or it doesn't. He will try to find obvious code violations, but will NOT have the opportunity to inspect every joint visually. It would be unusual for an inspector to fail a job on quality of craftmanship unless there it was a SERIOUS mess. There aren't enough inspectors, you couldn't afford it if they did inspect like that, it would get over into an area that is WAY too subjective. A first year apprentice may do a pipe job that does not look as pretty as a 20 year journeyman would put together...but if the joints are sound, that is what counts. The construction industry perforce accepts a certain variability in workmanship. We could argue about this all day!


Ain't that the truth. Good Point Jimbo.

If there was not a tolerance then nothing would pass.

This is off the subject but, It reminds me of what someone recently said, "We have so many Laws they are putting everyone in jail."

He was speaking the truth...
 

Gary Swart

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This is another guy who wants approval from folks on the forum to do what he wants to do and will not accept the advice to get professional help and just keeps pushing hoping to get someone to OK his plan.
 
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