Improper Installation of a Steel Composite Tub?

[Tub_Amuck]

We are having our bathroom remodeled. Since it is a second floor bath, we opted for an Americast-type product made by Crane (called the San Marcos.)

When the tub came I noticed that it had the sprayed on backing, like the Americast, but it also had this strange styrofoam pad, with honeycomb pattern, affixed to the bottom. I asked the general contractor about this, how would it be stable?, etc. and he said it would be set in a mortar bed, and the mortar would fill into the holes, making it stable.

So the subcontractor (not the guy I'd discussed the tub with) went on with our bathroom renovation, gutted to studs, did wiring, plumbing, drywall, the works, and then set the tub. (We didn't see them do any of this because we work during the day.) The tile guy came today and when we got home we were looking at the tile--and the tub too, since up until this point they'd had a board over it. I stood in the tub to check the level on the back wall and there was loud creaking and a noticable flex. Since the tile man is supposed to lay the floor tomorrow, I assume that the installation of the tub is "complete" but this flexing/creaking behavior seemed odd, so we checked under the tub. There is a 1/2 inch gap under the tub that I can easily run my fingers under. No sign of mortar. We went and got a metal flexibile ruler and I was able to insert that up to its full length (minus the bit I was holding onto)--so about 15 inches. No resistance, just a gap for the full length of the tub.

So you can imagine we feel a bit desperate at the moment since our assessment is that this tub has not been installed correctly and the tile guy is tiling it into place! If anyone out there has experience installing porcelain on steel composite tubs, is this sort of flex and extreme creaking usual? Or is this just a characteristic of this sort of product? Surely this isn't how it is supposed to be???

Any feedback welcome!
Thanks!
J.

 

[Jadnashua]

The tub MUST be supported underneath it...sounds like it is hung from the edges. Think about when it is full of water, too. Big problems. Talk to the GC. Get them to fix it first.

 

[Sponsor]

 

[Geniescience]

the tile guy knows how to mix a sand mix and set the tub in it.

before you ask him if he is going to do it, or planning to do it, find a way to ask him and the GC what they are planning to do -- in general -- and see if they are aware of this problem. Time for a reality check.

Laying the floor may not be a big thing. in terms of later removing the tub and attaching it again to its plumbing.

Are the walls tiled yet?

david

 

[Leejosepho]

Yes, definitely get that tub set and supported properly!

 

[Tub_Amuck]

Are the walls tiled yet?

david

We are only having the bath surround tiled. And yes, the walls are tiled already, although I don't think he is done yet (the tiles aren't grouted yet, just set.)

I can't imagine how they will fix this other than deinstalling (or ripping out) the wall tile (and backer board too, I guess, since it is installed over the lip of the tub? Not sure how this works) to get the tub out. The GC has not called me back yet.

 

[Leejosepho]

I can't imagine how they will fix this other than deinstalling (or ripping out) the wall tile (and backer board too, I guess, since it is installed over the lip of the tub? Not sure how this works) to get the tub out. The GC has not called me back yet.

Whatever you do, do not settle for the idea of shooting some expanding foam in under the tub. Rather, only accept what you had been promised:

When the tub came ... I asked the general contractor ... and he said it would be set in a mortar bed ... making it stable.

 

[Tub_Amuck]

What should I be able to see?

One of the questions I meant to ask is: what should I be able to see if the tub were installed correctly? Should there be mortar visible near the edges of the tub? Should there be no gap at all between the tub and the floor? (I'm not sure what gaps are existing on purpose, say for laying of the tile--I hope you understand what I mean.)

I'm just trying to arm myself with some comebacks in case, when I do hear from the contractor, he says "this IS a properly installed tub; that's the tub you ordered and that's how they are", etc.

Also, does anyone know of a link to a website online that gives instructions re: how to set this type of tub in a mortar bed? For example, what kind of mortar? I'm not sure the subcontractor who installed it has installed this type of tub before.

Thanks,
J.

 

[Master Plumber Mark]

expanding foam or moarter

its not very hard to make this work right,as long as you can get access to both ends of the tub to apply the morter....


its not a big problem yet to fix this....

you got to just squeeze that foam and maorter into the
center where you stand....


I would put a level on the tub and make sure its at least
sitting in there right....

If you really want to get crappy, put a hold on the job
remember----you are the guy with the money.....

if it is not tiled on the walls make him take it back out and
re-install it.....

all you got to do is stand in the tub to test the work


the moarter should look something like this
completely spread out under the base of the tub and even
spread or feathered up along the back and sides to support heavy
sister-in-laws who weigh in at 350+

 

[Geniescience]

One of the questions I meant to ask is: what should I be able to see if the tub were installed correctly? Should there be mortar visible near the edges of the tub? Should there be no gap at all between the tub and the floor?

Using your same skills that brought you here, websearching, use the local search function to find your answers. In other words, a good web site is this one. (P.S. no offense meant to you, but i am going to say something necessary here: i know that this is a minor panic for you, but still, in general, before EACH time you post a new post, you do some homework and background work and searching and thinking and reflecting, and you get some information and / or answers somewhere else or at lesat from here -- and then you share this while you ask for new input. This encourages the seriously overworked senior people to keep coming back to read each new post, and to help you. My opinion, which I have not tried to turn into a "policy").

Post a picture of the underneath of your tub.

It is true that this situation is fixable. And that there are many ways to fix it. Relax.

It is also true to say that your contractor shows signs of being seriously not up to par. By the way, is there a vapor barrier behind the wall tiles?

David

 

[Leejosepho]

I believe this is your tub and its spec sheet:
www.craneplumbing.com/products/Default.aspx?prodNo=2206XL&lang=EN
www.craneplumbing.com/downloads/spec_sheets/2206XL_EN.pdf

The gap that needs to be filled is the 1-1/2" space under the "bowl" part of your tub. I have yet to read others' comments here, but I do know there are ways to inject grout into voids to fill them for support of whatever is above.

When the tub came I noticed that it had the sprayed on backing, like the Americast, but it also had this strange styrofoam pad, with honeycomb pattern, affixed to the bottom.

I would guess that "strange styrofoam pad" is about deadening sound or something like that, and I would not worry about it unless it is very soft and easy to crush.

 

[Tub_Amuck]

Contractor Being Difficult...

First of all, thank you for all the helpful comments!

The contractor finally called us. He was, I guess not surprisingly, not very nice about all this, saying that it was "the product" and not the installation. He said he "believed" they set it in a mortar bed, that he and the subcontractor had discussed mortar before he had left. (But that's essentially admitting he didn't see it set in mortar, himself.) I asked him why I could, then, easily slide an 18" ruler underneath the tub for the full length of the tub and meet with no resistance (and something thicker than a metal ruler if it weren't for the backerboard on the floor for the floor tile impeding access to the space under the tub--my guess is there is about 1/2 inch of gap there.)

He said they could spray foam in to stabilize it, that that was "how we deal with this sort of problem". I told him someone in this forum thread (and I've read this elsewhere, too--I do read other postings) warned against using spray foam as a fix for an improper steel tub installation. From what I've read if it isn't set properly there is nothing for it but to pull it out and reset the tub. It is unfortunate that the tiler had already tiled the walls around the tub, but what can be done, if the tub is not solidly installed? (And if there is something that can be done, that is not a temporary fix like foam, please let me know what it is.) My gut feeling is that if the gap we are talking about is as great as 1/2", that is more instability than a spray in foam can fix.

I'm imagining a scenario where we let him spray the foam, it temporarily seems to fix the problem, we sign off and pay off and then a few months to a year down the road all that under there starts to break down, problems develop, and we will have less recourse at that point.

We have the spec sheet on the San Marcos tub already (but thanks to the poster who thoughtfully posted the link) but what I find frustrating about that is that the spec sheet doesn't show this styrofoam structure on the bottom (and I can't remember what its relationship is to the rest of the tub--how far it sticks down, etc.) What I really wish I had was the instructions for installation that came with the tub itself, but they of course are no longer on site and have probably been thrown away by the contractor.

It's easy to say "relax" but we feel at a great disadvantage here. We have sunk several thousand dollars (12 thousand + so far; a great deal of money for us--took us years to save it; we will owe 1/3 more at end of job) into this renovation and have as a reward an unstable tub that makes loud creaking noises when we stand in it. (You can reproduce this sound for yourself at home by standing and shifting your weight around on a piece of packing styrofoam that is sitting on a piece of plywood--it sounds like that. Skronk--creak--groan!)

Re: moisture barrier question: I do not know, unfortunately. I do know they used Durarock for the tile walls. I took a picture of a cross section of what they did (from the kneewall portion) and will include it in this posting or the next.

The tiles on the North wall of the tub surround also go out of plumb at the last row of tile (black row in linked image). The contractor claimed that "the tile walls couldn't be made plumb because you have an old house." But I don't understand if you've gutted something to studs why you couldn't do something (say sister a new board next to an existing wall stud to create a new, plumb, nailing surface). I thought that was one of the reasons for gutting to studs, to have that sort of control. That's a point for a tile forum but I'm just explaining why I'm losing faith in my contractor. (It's way off plumb, by the way; visible to the naked eye which is what prompted me to check.)

I didn't enclose a photo with my first post because there isn't much to see, since the ceiling of the room under the bath has already been closed in, the tub is enclosed on three sides, and the backer board for the floor tile is already installed. You can see a gap along the apron of the tub but I can't show how far back it goes. I'll enclose a few pictures we shot, in this posting and the next.

Thanks again for your patience and helpful suggestions.

J.

 

[Jadnashua]

Bottom line, the tub needs to be supported underneath. Call the manufacturer and get their recommendations. the squeaks will drive you crazy, the flex will strain the caulk between the tile and the tub, and you might end up with leaks at th edrain eventually from the flexing, not counting this could eventually cause the area around the drain to rust from the movement breaking down the finish.

Now, some foams are quite resilient, but mortar would be better. There may be other things that could be done - but the manufacturer's instructions should discuss this. Too bad you can't find them online. That is the final standard that will win in the end.

 

[Tub_Amuck]

A few more "work in progress" images...

After gut to studs (west and north walls)


After backerboard and tub inset:
West and North walls



North wall and east knee-wall:



Rough Work Timeline:
Mon: Demo of bathroom/gut to studs
Tues: Sistering of joists beneath bathroom (was reason for renovation); electrical & plumbing
Wed: greenboard on bath walls; LR ceiling part 1;
Thurs: finish work on LR ceiling; knee wall;backer board; tub set
Fri: beadboard wainscoting and top trim; tiled walls; baseboards

 

[Tub_Amuck]

Bottom line, the tub needs to be supported underneath. Call the manufacturer and get their recommendations. the squeaks will drive you crazy, the flex will strain the caulk between the tile and the tub, and you might end up with leaks at th edrain eventually from the flexing, not counting this could eventually cause the area around the drain to rust from the movement breaking down the finish.

Now, some foams are quite resilient, but mortar would be better. There may be other things that could be done - but the manufacturer's instructions should discuss this. Too bad you can't find them online. That is the final standard that will win in the end.

Crane's site, unfortunately, isn't very informative about installation. I am emailing their customer service department now, to see if that gets me anywhere. Thanks so much for your feedback. Our contractor grumbled when I said we'd prefer they follow the manufacturer's installation specs but that at least would give us an "official" baseline of how things should be done. (Rather than their catch-all "blow-in foam fix" method.)

Wouldn't it be nice if contractors would just do their jobs and then I wouldn't have to spend my entire day researching this?

 

[Master Plumber Mark]

expanding foam

you will probably be all right if you just do the
expanding foam under that tub.....

just go crazy with the stuff and lay it on extra thick
through the mid section of the tub....

probably 35 cans should do the trick....

you can make an extension to the mormal length of
those tubes....

you cant get to the back side but you if you lay it on thick
you should be fine.....

try that first , that should make you happy
and it keep things civil with the contractor....

and hold back about 2 grand to be paid in a few months.

if he dont like that idea,
he can always tear it out and do it again.

 

[Geniescience]

woww!

impressive post ! Lots to chew on.

You are right on, that furring out from the studs is normal and to-be-expected. This confirms the bad news.

Gut feeling: you have a minor fraudster on your hands. Don't spend another dime, and stop payment on the last check. He said "I believe" instead of "I agree this could be serious".

FWIW, it is true that triple expanding foam can be a fix.

David

 

[Leejosepho]

The contractor finally called ... saying that it was "the product" and not the installation.

Rubbish! But, my former landlord was even worse when he actually blamed me, a mere 280-pound user, for the cracked bottom in a cheap fiberglass tub he had paid someone else to install without anything under it at all.

He said they could spray foam in to stabilize it, that that was "how we deal with this sort of problem".

Not in my house, he would not! I tried precisely that to no avail before completely replacing (at my own expense) the bottom in that cracked tub.

From what I've read if it isn't set properly there is nothing for it but to pull it out and reset the tub ... (And if there is something that can be done, that is not a temporary fix like foam, please let me know what it is.)

You need to have someone inject grout, and I do not mean the stuff the tiler uses with tile. I have only ever done this a couple of times many years ago and cannot recall many details, but some heavy industrial machinery, equipment, tanks and so on are set that way, and neither the grout nor the pump for injecting it is expensive ... and as I recall, the pump can be rented.

Here, take a look at this and do a little searching on your own for "grout pump":

www.handygrout.com/

 

[Tub_Amuck]

Follow-Up

Well, the contractor was not eager to do it, but we asked to have the tub removed and reset according to manufacturer's specs. (I've emailed Crane and asked for that; hope they send it.)

As far as my husband and I can tell, there is no mortar, none, under this tub. (Where would it be hiding?) The contractor says "sometimes it shrinks" afterwards.

I know that the spray foam solution might fix our problem, but since this tub has this styrofoam insert underneath it, with honeycombs beneath (clearly intended to have something come up into them, like mortar) it seems like setting it down into a bed of mortar is the best way to insure we'll lose the squeaking and creaking.

It looks like, from the pictures I've seen on the web here and there (and the ones posted by masterplumber Mark) that quite a bit of mortar is needed--a several inch deep bed that the tub can be pressed into. (For sure if they had done that we wouldn't be able to slide anything around underneath the tub.)

So Monday a grumpy crew is coming to rip out our tub. Is there anything we should watch out for? I think they are planning to remove the last few rows of tile and leave the rest up, but I'm wondering how they will deal with the backerboard that overlaps the flange? If they cut it and then insert another panel of it after reinstallation, would that cause problems later by having another seam that moisture could conceivably work its way through? (By the way, if they haven't used a moisture barrier behind the durarock, is that a terrible thing? I saw no sign of it on the cross section I could see of the kneewall.)

Thanks!
J.

 

[Leejosepho]

Well, the contractor was not eager to do it, but we asked to have the tub removed and reset according to manufacturer's specs. (I've emailed Crane and asked for that; hope they send it.)

I am willing to bet Crane says nothing at all about a bed of mortar being necessary under their tubs. As far as tub manufacturers are concerned, I suspect, their tubs are structurally sound right out of the box.

As far as my husband and I can tell, there is no mortar, none, under this tub. (Where would it be hiding?) The contractor says "sometimes it shrinks" afterwards ...

It looks like, from the pictures I've seen on the web here and there (and the ones posted by masterplumber Mark) that quite a bit of mortar is needed--a several inch deep bed that the tub can be pressed into. (For sure if they had done that we wouldn't be able to slide anything around underneath the tub.)

In your particular case, the manufacturer's drawings indicate only 1-1/2" between the bottom of the tub and the floor, and the fact you now have only about 1/2" would indicate something had been placed under it.

... since this tub has this styrofoam insert underneath it, with honeycombs beneath (clearly intended to have something come up into them, like mortar) ...

I would doubt that is Crane's intention at all.

... it seems like setting it down into a bed of mortar is the best way to insure we'll lose the squeaking and creaking.

Yes, and if that contractor has ever heard of pumping grout, you can be quite sure he is not going to have that tub and all the tile removed and reset/replaced ... and to do so would be quite foolish, actually.

So Monday a grumpy crew is coming to rip out our tub. Is there anything we should watch out for?

You bet, and it will be driven by that ill-caused grumpiness.

 

[Tub_Amuck]

Styrofoam Pad Under Tub

In your particular case, the manufacturer's drawings indicate only 1-1/2" between the bottom of the tub and the floor, and the fact you now have only about 1/2" would indicate something had been placed under it.

There could be six inches of clearance under there for all we know. All we have to check it with is a thin metal ruler. If I could get my fingers under there I could tell you for sure. The 1/2 gap I know is there is just what I see from the outside. And even that wouldn't alarm me necessarily, since I'd assume the gap was there for the tile to slip underneath--but we can not hit any resistance with the ruler going all the way back to the wall. Our opinion is that nothing is there and that the guys just set it down and walled it in that way. If the tub hadn't squeaked loudly I guess we never would have suspected.

The general contractor himself was the one who told me that the honeycombs in the styrofoam were for mortar. Of course, he is cabable of some BS we are starting to see, so who knows...

Has anyone else installed a tub with a styrofoam pad underneath? Did it creak and squeak? We could go with a different tub at this point (of the same dimensions) so if bailing on this product is what needs to happen, we can do so.